Redrock:
As requested by the Redrock Micro company we have removed the part concerning their gear from our review. We stand 100% behind what was written, put together and published in the review about their products, but want to respect their request. We hope to be able to share our opinions with Cinema5d members regarding Redrock gear in future reviews.
Statement by Brian Valente from Redrock Micro:
“For concerns too numerous to list here, Redrock has requested that our participation in the cinema5D rig review be removed. Redrock will provide an additional detailed statement at a later point. While we cannot support the methods and resulting conclusions of this isolated review, we continue to be supportive of the cinema5D community.”
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Hi…
I have read this review several times. And I have done my own tests with
ARRI, Chrosziel, Zacuto and Cinevate.
I use a 5Dmkii and Carl Zeiss Lenses which are heavy rotators meaning that
turning the focus dial is NOT as easy as on an AF lens like Canon’s. That is great as
it provides you with more accuracy. However, it also increases the torque on the whole unit when operating the lens via a follow focus. So I went to the store and tested the different brands. All had exactly the same problem. When turning the follow focus the whole camera would actually move a bit (like 2 mm ) either up or down depending on whether I would turn the FF C-Wise or CC-wise. THe problem lies within the limits of how the 5 D mounts to the plate. 1 ONE screw. That is it.
Zacutos was a regular JittaBUG and when pulling focus with that the whole camera would move so much that you would think that you are drunk when pulling Focus (Again this HAPPENS with ALL ZEISS lenses which are very high quality.) Chrosziels was nearly as bad. ARRIS was also pretty un-useable for this. I even called Chrosziel and spoke to the lead designer who recognized the problem and stated that customization would have to be (and had already been) done on their rigs if used with high quality manual focus lenses.
The ONLY company providing a solution which to my eyes were looking like somethin useful was Cinevate. NOw, here in Germany I had no way of testing this and after reading this here review I must that I was pretty reluctant towards investing in Cinevate. But as I said they were the only one which (to my eyse) were building a product which at least looked like it could cut it…. So I went a head a purchased their stuff.
Now I have it and my lens(Zeiss 100MM Macro & 50MM) aint moving a single millimeter even when turning the FF VERY fast.The 50 MM lens is PERFECTLY compatible with the Cinevate follow focus. The lens gears are superior to Chrosziel and Zacutos. It allows you to turn past 360 degrees which on my Zeiss lens is a necessity if you wanna be able to utilize it to its fullest extend. The FF is the best quality I have had in my hand and I have test ARRI and Chrosziel which were great but not as good as this here. And remember I was RELUCTANT towards Cinevate after reading this here review.
The cinevate Mattabox is greats and the best part about it is that it is height adjustable - totally versatile. I seriously CANNOT understand this review which to me seems as if the writers were having personal issues with Cinevate.
To those of you reading this…. The top brands of this TEST WILL move your lens if its name is CARL ZEISS when turning their FF… Cinevates wont….
If you are getting paid for your work then a few MM of movement is enough to endanger your income. At least in my world quality is STILL something that DOES get written in CAPITALs.
This Cinema5D review is BIASED as biased could EVER BE…. I read it before making my purchase and almost cost me the best product. Luckily I trusted my own research and NOT this review. Goes without saying that my opinion of Cinema5D has dropped below the quality of this here review…
Thanks for reading - Good Day
As one of the many purchasers of gear out there I have to concur, any company demanding a review of one of their products be cut/censored gets an automatic veto for my buying habits. Not insurmountable maybe but a huge hit taken. Weak strategy Mr. Brian Valente. You might want to consider picking up a few books on amazon.com about business, marketing and competition in the information age. Acting like a cheesy punk turns off customers in droves and with the speed of information dissemination these days the ramifications are intense. Look up the Streisand effect Brian: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect).
Seth
Hi everyone
There is still some misleading info here, so I would like to clear up a couple things. There has NEVER ever been any hint or suggestion of legal action from us. This idea is simply untrue, and I can’t be any more clear than that. Any suggestion to the contrary now is pushing a different agenda.
Second we absolutely believe in legitimate third party reviews. We will are participating in upcoming ones and we absolutely welcome that. We are not interested in censorship: we are interested in good quality, informative, impartial reviews that help people understand the pros and cons of any product, rigs or otherwise. We have participated in many in the past, and plan on doing so in the future. This is the exception for us for the reasons I’ve spelled out below.
Finally, our April price adjustment had as many price decreases as increases - we’ve previously explained the reasons behind this (a lot of product improvements, etc.) elsewhere on this forum. It’s still a great deal and 1/3 the cost of comparable gear.
@Jason - there’s nothing generic about this response: I have written it personally to respond to any questions people have about Redrock and our position, and continue to do so. You and I have also spoken via phone at your request on a number of occasions and we’ve also gone out of our way to help you several times. I don’t know how much more un-generic things can be. If you have something specific and concrete you want to share then please PM me, call me, whatever you like.
Thanks again - Brian
People complain about how expensive all the stuff around the camera is. Well, I *was* one of those people. And I’ve bought different stuff from India and stuff alike, and while it LOOKS like real movie equipment; it is not. (In fact, my shoulder rig broke in two, right in the actual welding of the plastic, and I would NEVER mount even a cheap camera like the t2i on a rig like that).
You get what you pay for. And for my part, I’m willing to pay the extra money for something that actually works.
Which rig are you talking about ?
For RedRock to pull their review in my book automatically means boycott.
This is blatant censorship and puts RedRock in a bad light.
I used the DVtec rig after reading the reviews in this article and I have to say thanks to the folks at Cinema 5D for taking the time to do this review and recommend it. The spring loaded pole support on the DVtec rig is fantastic. It gets a bit loaded down after you put on a matte box and FF, but it’s still better than not having the rod support. You also can’t beat the price point. The only catch is that the rods are screw in so if you want extensions (and if you’re using a matte box with a the Canon 70-200mm or a longer lens you’ll need them) you have to buy them from DVtec, which I found out when I went to get extensions at the local camera shops in Toronto - none of which had any in stock.
Anyway, if you want to check out footage that was hand held and using the DVtec rig with a 7D in the field here is some:
http://vimeo.com/10953866
(I shot it with the Canon 24-105mm L IS f/4 lens)
CAN DO A SUMMARY OF RESULTS. RANKINGS: PRICE / QUALITY
very good information
I am looking for DSLR support gear, baseplate, rods, mattebox etc., for an upcoming project. I had looked favorably at the RedRock gear but when I discovered this review I thought I would get some more info. To my dismay RedRock has censored their part of the review. I find this appalling and reprehensible. Well I think I will look at other gear before I even think about buying RedRock. I will most likely not buy from them if this is their attitude toward potential customers. No Red Rock Mcro gear for ME. They could have used this review to improve their products and make many customers feel involved in their products. I want to buy from manufacturers who listen to their customers needs. I have been shooting for 30 years and for such a long time manufacturers refused to listen to the people who used their gear. So I had to customize my camera gear to work the way I wanted. I learned a lot of skills along the way but nothing can replace an interested manufacturer. Now if Canon and Panasonic would listen to the users of their DSLRs and add needed improvements. There is no perfect product but listening can bring things you never though of.
Cheers
Robert C. Fisher
Hi
I’ve been trying to download your dslr rig review.pdf over 20 times with no luck (and I have broadband).
Can you guys provide another link where to download from?
Thank you!
Lobo.
Just another thing. I read Brian Valente’s reasons for yanking the review and I must concur with him. If this review is for out and out pro users then the price to value category has less meaning as you just get the best as a job or two would pay for it. But Redrock fills a niche in that they make gear that can be used at pro level for consumer prices. Few can pull this off. Their FF has almost as little play as a Chrosziel and less than the Arri at 1/3 the price.
When I read these posts, sometimes I feel they’re reviewing Lamborghini’s for the Chevy crowd.
I’m a professional DP just now getting into the HDSLR thing full force. I’ve many parts from Chrosziel, ET, and Zacuto and am constantly configuring what will work best.
So here’s my review on the “review”. I found some of the observations to be spot on concerning quality and build of the various manufacturers. Soft metals and cheap plastics are rife in accessories market. You tighten a Chrosziel or Arri screw, you only need a child’s strength to have it lock down. That’s the real stuff. And you can never make too big a deal about the quality and precision of the screws. These are the first things to go in any support system. Look at a Sachtler screw and then a Manfrotto. Which would you trust to suspend your investment from?
I also wish I had read the review before I bought Chrosziel’s HDSLR plate as they are definitely right that the Z Finder hits the baseplate. The Z finder is fast becoming a standard piece of gear. Optically it’s the best. But why does it have to be lower than than the camera’s base? This is so retarded as it precludes the use of long baseplates and quick releases. It forces you into using a Z spacer or Z release which I feel is a bit ad-hoc approach. It’s a very Apple approach.
That said, the glaring omission from these reviews are Zacuto parts. Overall, I think they may have wiped the floor with most of the competitors as they have unparalleled configurability. But I totally understand their position not to participate.
The conflict of interests in these reviews is enough to nullify its credibility. We keep the winning rig - talk about being rigged. If Cinema 5D wants to restore its credibility, I’d say 1st return the winning rig. 2nd, get some true professionals to field test and give their opinions. Building something in a shop is nice but you really don’t know how it is until you’ve taken it out on a job. I’ve sold many a well reviewed 35mm adaptor after they failed me in the real world. Look at the reduser.net SALT tests for fair reviews.
The last thing I found funny about the reviews was the score of the Chrosziel FF. I think it’s the best of the bunch for one reason. It has the least amount of play. Less than Arri, Vocas or Redrock. Also, its snap on and off gear is great for reversing to the “dumb” side. You also never mentioned Chrosziel sells a reduction gear that makes pulling focus on a still lens much more tolerable.
The intentions for this review are great. But the conflict of interest is worthy of Chicago politics. Though in this case a bit more naive - I hope.
Reviews shouldnt be removed by request of the manufacture: if i wanted to know what the manufacture says i would go to its website. Bad for redrock but also bad for the people who review it because they do not ttand for what they have written!
Hi….all, please can some body who have the arri mmb-1 mini mattebox tell me about the physical size of the front cup…..please, I am planning to diy a matte box,and was find interest with the mmb-1. Thanks before.
I was happy to find an extensive review like this, but in the end this piece left me confused. The writing was extremely poor, and verdicts seem haphazard. In my mind, a good review provides information so a reader can make a decision for himself with objective criteria and recommendations. There’s definitely room for improvement. Keep up the good work.
Let’s face it, this stuff is over priced… Way over priced! If I can buy a piece of machined steel and aluminum that’s vastly more complex yet cheaper for my mountain bike how can these guys justify their prices.
I have made my own shoulder mount rigs with nothing more than a Manfrotto tripod, fluid head and an adapter plate. When it’s not a shoulder mount rig it’s a tripod (dual purpose). I can do this with my monopod and Varizoom hand held steadycam too.
Where’s IDCs rig? Does the rig have to have 15mm rods to be considered? In my opinion you shouldn’t be overbuilding your DSLR and defeating it’s light weight inconspicuous advantages.
I totally agree. It looks like many person wants to use th hdslr like they were film cameras. They are not, what’s the point? Theare lighter? The whole 15mm rod is overweight for such a small device. Check the idc follow focus, that is the type of ideas that will make moviemaking evole into something else.
And you should check the multirig from dvtec, way more flexble than the “pro” one. Really good build, and soooo creative.
I’m with an idc follow focus and the dvtec multir rig. Everything fit in my backpack, no need of other things, like wheel for the ff, or rods, matte box..
to Tom Warner: can you give a elaborate and full explanation about what you are saying, it will be really helpful for low budget filmmakers..
waiting for your reply..
thanks
First, I need to say I’m an event and snow sports videographer so I need light weight and multi purpose gear because I carry it miles into the backcountry or I’m shooting a fast paced wedding. With a 652b Manfrotto monopod and 701 head with one handle, tilt all the way forward and down then lock the head. I take a 577 adapter plate with the dove tail mounted under the locking plate at a slight angle and then i mount that to the 7D and then to the 701 head. Put the monopod on your shoulder and spin the 701 handle so you can support the under the camera. With the handle, Z-finder to your eye and focus ring held it is very stable. This works with my tripod and steady cam too.
I suppose I could mass produce a shoulder pad to attach to the monopod and charge hundreds for it.
Could anyone tell me the difference between these rigs and a steadicam(say merlin).
particularly the DVTEC rig and steadicam merlin.
thank you..
Is Redrock a sponsor from Cinema 5D? reviews are reviews, and shouldn’t be removed…
I don’t know how seriously I can take a set of reviews that mentions a feature as being “the shit” even if it was used in a postive way, unprofessional.
I’m surprised to see such a high rating of the Vocas rig as far as comfortableness is concerned - you guys were testing the rig with the offset backgrounds! The shoulder support is supposed to fall INTO your shoulder, not AWAY from it. I can’t imagine how you would find it comfortable to have the shoulder support sitting at the wrong angle… The bracket should be flipped to accommodate for this. I kept looking at the photos of the rig thinking how dumb it was that it was configured this way by the manufacturer, then I went to the website and found that it in fact was assembled wrong for the review! Anyway… Thanks again for your efforts!
Hi Adam, You’re absolutely right on that. We did attach it upside down, the manufacturer told us later and I just added a note in the review.
The round design of the shoulder pad made it comfortable even though the bracket was installed up side down. In fact it doesn’t make much difference on comfort at all.
This review has been very useful, but perhaps it is incomplete and always will be- (as the authors concede. ) This technology is evolving so rapidly that reviews and a forum like this is essential. So, good on ya!
For the companies who did not fair well in the review (unfairly or not) hopefully you will have opportunities to clarify, modify, etc…. Its a tough world these days and the motto may as well be, “evolve or die.”
Has anyone put their hands on the Handy film tools rig- just saw an ad for it and I like what I see….
http://www.handyfilmtools.com/adwords/Handy_Film_Tools.html
I have been working to evolve my dslr rig past the clunky magnified pixels of all the loup based finders, and came up with a black box adapter for putting an orientable electronic broadcast viewfinder on the camera.
IT works great. Hope to have a proto to send these guys soon. If you have an old betacam doorstop lying around, you already have the viewfinder . Now you just need the adapter.
Hi, would like more information on the black box adaptor for adapting a broadcast viewfinder to a DSLR.
Cheers, Colin Allison.
hi,
I should have a prototype soon…Keep promising to post pictures, but there are a couple of manufacturing details to work out. feel free to get in touch. movmedia@rof.net
I do have two doorstop betacams. Tell me more. I would love to talk with you on the telephone about this. I can be reached at 603-523-9244
DVTEC RIG IS not that cheap. THE actual rig on this page cost $420 + $90SHIPPing from Isreal = $510
I was interested in it but Im going to wait and look at other things. Definitely not that huge of a deal. the shipping killed it for me.
What about Zacuto?
Ciao from Italy
Just tried a RR follow focus today…woah, the unit shudders when you turn too fast, thought we set it up wrongly the teeth might be misaligned, after 5 attempts, its the same shuddering results.
Gave up on fast pull focus on that unit.
Thank you very much for this review!
I would suggest to boycott red rock products until the review is up again. The behaviour of RR is just scandalous.
You revealed a serious bug in the Genus Mattebox. And they did the only right thing. They fixed it!
It’s all about web presence. Lets face it, the first point of contact for people in the market for new kit is the web. A high web presence is what seems to matter, look at Bedrock and Zap-you-too, the higher the profile, the higher the prices; unless you are a company such as SmallHD who appear to have an extremely high professional web presence without enrolling the usual bunch of self promoting 5D2 leaches. I urge Cinema 5D members to go back to basics and use this site for what it was intended for. It’s not the political bitching platform that unfortunately some people think it is! Meanwhile, what’s your favourite lens cloth?
So the Genus mattebox got 1 star out of 10 for quality? for a company that doesn’t make much it’s pretty bad that they only get 1 star. I mean 1 out of 10 is like saying it’s trash isnt it? The weird thing is so many people love them in the forums and such.
Absolutely fantastic and necessary set of reviews! My hat is off to you for doing such a thorough investigation! Because of this review I’ve found the Vocas rig and am no completely sold it’s the perfect solution for me! I love the top handle vs. Chrosziel’s!
I currently have the Chrosziel baseplate and am looking at purchasing the LCDVF - can anyone share their experiences with the two? I know Zacuto’s loupe will not fit on the baseplate, but will the LCDVF? The review makes no mention of this option…
Thanks in advance!
Cinevate’s video response to this rig review.
http://www.cinevate.com/website/index.php/dslr_rig_review
I think it gives a balanced response to some of the points which are mentioned by Sebastian.
Great video, well done!
This is our quote from the review:
It is possible to mount the follow focus gear in reverse. You need an “L†wrench and have to unlock 4 screws, then you can flip the whole unit 180 degrees and mount the 4 screws again. In the advertisement on the Cinevate site Dennis says, it will take several minutes. Since it took us more than an hour to get this far, we could spare the minutes to set this rig up, but when you’re in an active shooting situation you usually don’t want to spend minutes to adjust the follow focus to a lens
NON of us was talking about an hour to reverse the gear.
Thanks Johnnie
I own a Brevis35 and can attest to Cinevate’s overall quality. I was amazed at the amount of high quality components they were able to fit in a system costing a little over $1000. Like the president of the company points out, there’s plastic, and then there’s plastic.
What do you think of doing a straight forward poll of cinema5d users on who’s gear they are using and another to rate the “customer statisfaction” for each manufacturer might be interesting?
Let us all have our two cents?
Great idea, put on my todo list!
I just wanted to chime in and say I’ve bought numerous products from RRM and have had nothing but great interaction with the company as well as personally from Brian Valente.
I would buy from Redrock Micro again in a New York minute.
Happy Customer.
damn!!!! I should READ this article , I got snookered by all these company sponsored ‘reviews’, and got myself a genus rig. too late for me.
The fear that Redrock, a US company, can take legal steps against a non US forum just because they don’t like the review they have got if this forum does not remove the review, is totally ungrounded and sounds as a bad joke. Such a fear regime is only possible in the US. Redrock will never, never succeed with legal bullying outside the US, as it is possible in the afore mentioned pre-modern country. It would be quite interesting therefore to know the real reason which have led cinema5D, a non US based form (correct?) to comply with Redrock’s “kind pressure”? I understand that Brian Valente felt the review was inaccurate and perhaps somewhat biased. However leaving a substantial comment would have contributed to put the record straight in a favourable way for Redrock. What has happened here is regrettable for all parts, the cinema5D community, the forum itself and, last but not least - Redrock. To paraphrase a well known quote — Redrock has won a limited military victory, but has lost the political battle. Remember, from California to the Ethiopian highlands - business is based on trust. This applies particularly to small businesses.
PS. I will address later in a separate the tightening fit problems I have mentioned in an earlier comment.
Danap
please see our response below- any suggestion of ‘redrock considering legal steps’ is simply untrue. Bringing this misinformation up again does not promote a meaningful dialog. This is not a question of countries competing with each other, and we don’t see this as short term or long term gain. It’s unfortunate all around. As I’ve offered to you before, the offer to PM me still stands, and we will resolve your questions or concerns regarding your gear.
Thanks
Brian
Seriously…no one has any idea what your point is. Maybe you should rewrite your comment to benefit the C5D community instead of trying to sound all flawlessly PR and “advanced.” I might care what you have to say if you weren’t so arrogant. The community doesn’t care who is in the most power in the DSLR field, we just want the best and most useful products. Get out of here…
I can empathize with both parties.
Red rock do sell to the high end and the review is just opinion.
IJP, maybe like me, you are not from the US where the legal industry has a strong hold on the wallets of the country. If I was threatened with a legal suit I wouldn’t let my pride or ego stand in the way of protecting all I have built up as a business. It’s bloody hard to build a business.
I support both red rock and cinema5d and it’s a shame proaim isn’t in the review coz I think it will be the choice of many of the ppl who don’t want to spend as much as they have spent on their camera on accessories and as a canon lens owner who uses nikon as well, their double sided follow focus is well priced.
Dear Brian.
The eyeSpy rig configuration (with one handle) is the one Redrock shows in its home page.
http://www.redrockmicro.com/dslr/index.html#eyespy
To remove any further doubts that this is the Redrock proposed setup can you please be kind and give the readers a link to the instruction paper that comes with the product.
Thanks.
Johnnie Behiri
Johnnie
All of our documentation and tutorials are at start.redrockmicro.com
There isn’t just one proposed setup. We offer both single and dual handgrip options for the eyeSpy, along with a lot of other accessories. You can see the dual handgrip option here http://bit.ly/4R5Rsl Having many options to configure what you want is part of what we think makes a good choice for support rigs.
Brian
Dear Brian.
May I suggest that all official eyeSpy setup pictures/videos and Product Assembly Card that comes with the set will show the rig with dual handgrip unlike the following:
Document: http://www.redrockmicro.com/start/resources/eyeSPYDELUXEBundleAssemblyCard.PDF
Tutorial on Vimeo
http://www.vimeo.com/6677199 which clearly shows that your DSLR kit has 1 handgrip only.
Many thanks!
Johnnie
Brian, I was literally about to order the Redrock mount from your website when I found this updated post. I came to make one last final decision and noticed your entry had disappeared.
I am a longtime customer and was there with you in the beginning. Now I find myself thinking twice about buying something from Redrock because you pulled this entry.
I’m not going to get into China vs. Google and net neutrality, but I think shooters and customers have a right to see what’s out there. Give the people some credit. We don’t think everything we read on the internet is true. But we deserve the chance to make our own decisions. Now instead of being an option, you simply don’t exist.
Thanks.
Hi Lindsay
We’ve done our best to be clear about our reasons for this rather extraordinary situation. Fortunately you are close by several of our resellers, and I recommend that you stop by and check out our gear firsthand, which is always the best option. PM me if you need more details.
Thanks
Brian
If the reviewers can send the information out to someone else, we can post that review on a different thread.
danap
Just PM me personally and we will address your issues. As I said we stand behind our products.
Many of the concerns of the previous thread understandably center around our previously long lead time from order to delivery. We are working to address this by making shipments and payment happen as close to simultaneous as possible. We can take this up in the separate thread you posted or via PM.
Thanks
Brian
Sorry for the typos in my comment. Nio “Edit” knob on this page
As a (former) customer of Redrock, with a lot of money invested in Redrock equipment (shoulder rig, two set of rods, eyespy setup, new baseplate for D and Micro followfocus version 2) and a outraging customer experience when it comes to shipment,delivery and customer follow up (or lack of such see my former post http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5836 )…..I am not surprised with this new desperate move from Brian Valente. Yes the screws of Redrock rig suck terribly ! Yes, there are problems tightening AND loosening the screws ! Yes, there are also problem tightening the screws so that the crabon fiber rod do not rotate freely in the diverse handgrips! Yes Redrocks business communication sucks!
I think also, unheard here in Europe, that Cinema5D compliance with Redrock’s “kind request” to remove the review (motivated by their love for “fee speech”) also a wrong move. The only favour Redrock should have obtained is to respond to the review and ample opportunity comment space to express their criticsm.
There are fundamental aspects of freedom of speech in the public sphere that some funny U.S. based companies have problems to accept (Redrock is sadly not the only member of this club). I ask therefore cinema5D to re-publish this review in the name of the freedom of internet and public speech.
Hi everyone,
First, let’s get this legal question out of the way:
I want to be absolutely clear we never directly, indirectly, or even remotely suggested taking legal action as a result of this review, and we don’t have any interest in doing so. Any suggestion that Redrock is considering legal action is completely untrue. It’s not the right response, it’s not productive, and we’d rather continue to invest our time and effort in our products and services. We really have no idea where this idea that Redrock may threaten legal action came from, but it’s bogus.
Second, regarding our request to remove Redrock from the evaluation, it wasn’t an easy decision to make for us, and we know it won’t be a popular one. We have never made this kind of request before, so it is new territory for us as well. In the end we felt the misinformation and skewed results were more of a disservice to us and the community than leaving it be and having to defend it. In reviews, many people read the stars, look at the summary, and in this case probably come to the unfortunate conclusion they need to purchase a $5,000+ vocas rig that most can’t and (in our opinion shouldn’t) afford. A thoughtful response from us correcting inaccuracies would likely and unfortunately be lost in the details on some thread.
If you can stand reading a longer more detailed post, here are just a few of the specific reasons why we made the request, which we have also already shared with cinema5D:
- Not the Rigs we sent:
We never submitted anything the “tripod” category. In fact, we weren’t even made aware there was such a category until after the review was published. Apparently to fill the gap, the reviewers configured their own version of a Redrock tripod rig based on parts (some of which we didn’t even provide), and then were critical of what they created. What they ended up with does not represent Redrock, and based on the pictures they showed, I wouldn’t use or recommend what they developed either. Of the two rigs we did provide, the first was modified from the configuration we sent (see below), and the second one (theEvent) wasn’t even included in the review.
- Changed rig configurations provided:
One of the concerns stated the review on the eyeSpy rig was that it didn’t sit flat when put down, due to a single handgrip configuration. The rig we sent for review included two handgrips and the handlebar (which you can see in their picture on the “first contact” page) which allows it to be balanced when set down, but for unknown reasons this was later removed for the evaluation portion. In addition, no mention was made that the Redrock eyeSpy rig is the only one that can be directly attached to a tripod using the integrated baseplate in the shoulderpad - a feature we specifically designed to allow easy setting down of the rig and fast change between shouldermount and tripod. This misrepresents our product and its capabilities.
- The Price/Value evaluation doesn’t ring true.
Price/value is what you get for your money. The arri follow focus received six stars for price/value, when the price of just the follow focus is nearly $3,000. The most deluxe version of the Redrock eyeSpy rig at $1450 includes follow focus, shouldermount, DSLR offset, counterbalance weights, handgrips, lens gears, and other accessories, and yet receives a lower price/value rating. In our opinion this is simply misleading and inaccurate.
If you spend $3,000 for a follow focus, you should expect it will be exceptional. Redrock has always focused on providing great quality products with price as one of our primary design criteria.
- Limited evaluation criteria, which is still a mystery
Important criteria are missing from the evaluation, such as the ability to expand or customize the rig and add features, and the ability to use the equipment on both DSLR and video cameras. In fact, it would have been great if they asked us (all of us, really) what criteria to include. All criteria may not be critical for everyone, but helps to explain what the rigs were intended to do, and what the companies
After seeing the review our first reaction was to request a copy of the evaluation criteria and rankings. After two additional requests, we sadly have still not received a copy of the criteria and ratings as of this writing. We still hold out hope it will be sent to us.
We stand behind our products 100% and are committed to quality and affordability, and to continually improving our offerings. Our recommendation and hope is that everyone will have the opportunity to see and use Redrock products in person whenever possible. We attend as many shows as we can (NAB, Cinegear, HDExpo east and west, ramping up on PDN, etc.) and love for people to try them out and give us feedback. Rent Redrock from companies who provide it if you want to try it out first. Read several reviews to get a broad perspective. We stand behind our gear and believe it’s a great value for a great quality product. We believe in objective reviews that are transparent to all, objective, and without personal gain, and expect many future offerings as well.
I also want to add the cinema5D community is a really great resource for everyone, and we remain fully supportive. We were one of the original sponsors (if not the first), and hope to continue doing so in the future. Sebastian and his group have done an excellent job in creating a place for sharing information that benefits both users and the folks who supply equipment.
If you’ve read this far, thanks for your patience and in hearing us out.
Brian
Redrock Micro
http://www.redrockmicro.com/dslr/index.html#eyespy seems to have one handle and the delux one has a FF ?
Brian,
An Arri MFF-1 does not cost $3,000, it costs $1,800. I know because I purchased one (at a better price than that). It’s dishonest to represent the cost of a competing product as so high, and then make comparisons about the price vs. quality based on that dishonesty.
All,
That said, I just worked a shoot where one 7D was using a Chrosziel LWS and Arri MFF-1 (mine) and the other 7D was using a RedRock baseplate and Follow Focus v2. The difference was night a day. Yes you pay for quality, but in my opinion, every single dime is worth it. The Chrosziel/Arri gear is MILES ahead of RR’s offerings and should be represented as such, because it’s fact.
You get what you pay for and I saw that first hand this past week. I couldn’t be happier with my purchases.
Cheers,
Adam
Thank you for explaining your reasonings. I own the Field Cinema Bundle (carbon-fiber edition) and, thought I see some issues with it, agree that the value of the follow-focus alone is worth full stars in any kit you sell under $3000.
I don’t understand why you would send cinema5d an eyespy with two handles, that seems dishonest since you sell it with one. If your old eyespy had a handle, you should just have left that criticism out of your post, because by January you weren’t even selling that rig.
I wish I could have seen the original review, but if your response is accurate, I will be boycotting cinema5d.com before I would boycott your products.
I’m not saying I’m a Redrock fanboy, either. My next rig will be a Zacuto, but Redrock is cheaper, and I believe has more VALUE than any other brand I have used
there is a problem with this whole article, its starts here “We had no relations to any of the companies that would affect this review”…
hmmm, let me think, a company threatning legal action agaist a review?
I think by you guys not publishing it ould be a crime itself and people would lose confidence in cinema5D..
This is the internet, free from all the corporate stuff that goes on in the real world.
Shame on you red rock, you have lost my business and Im sure by pulling this stunt you have buried yourself overnight.
long live the freedom of speech…
A judge un court would laugh at a case like this..
Oh, of course, great reviews..
Don’t buy any of these rigs! They’re all a big waste of money.
I’m afraid Cinema5d is going commercial, focusing its efforts on promoting the expensive, mostly useless gear that gear-makers want to sell rather than on the useful gear that will actually help 5d users get better footage.
If you want to shoot while walking with your 5d, you must put it on a gimbal rig. Only a gimbal rig will give you usable footage while walking and shooting with the 5d. (Ok, a gyro should also work, if somebody made one.)
If you want a hand-held rig that allows you to move the camera around any which way while you are standing (or moving around very slowly, think tai chi), get a steadytracker or fig rig. I prefer the counterweighting system of the steadytracker, but I know others prefer the fig rig.
If you want a follow focus, install the EOS utility on your laptop, plug it into your camera via USB, and use an EOS lens. This software even gives your focus puller an additional monitor on the laptop screen, which he can zoom for focus assist, without interfering with the main HDMI monitor which the shooter is watching. If you are shooting and pulling focus by yourself, learn to smoothly turn the focus ring on the lens with your hand (and make sure you have a sturdy tripod). A big geared follow focus will not give better results and might give worse (and adds lots of bulk and lots of cost, all unnecessary).
If you want to shoot while walking with your camera on your shoulder, leave your 5d at home and buy or rent a shoulder-mount camera. The right tool for the job.
You don’t need a rail-mounted matte box. Use a lens hood.
The only thing you might need rails for is to make your 5d look decked-out. It’s like putting a big, fake blower on a compact car. If you think that looks super-cool, go for it.
Cheers all,
Tom
A lot of sense in what you say
Just you got it wrong on the Halfinchrails rig - the Tai Chi stuff is exactly what is for !
And you can tickle the focus which is critical on a 7 or 5
S
I don’t agree with most that is written above. 5D is an excellent handheld camera, with the right rig and practice you can do great cinematic handheld motion without rolling shutter being noticed.
Well balanced rigs will allow you to shoot longer. If your balance is bad your hands will start shakin quicker. A good cameraman can reduce handheld shake a LOT compared to a bad (or unexperienced) cameraman, no matter what rig. But the right rig will help improve that motion.
Seb - you know I agree the 5 is a great camera
I just think handhold gently a light agile rig is better than a big heavy one
a big heavy one is better for locks offs
If you a doing planned moves - cinema - it is very rare to do shots that are longger than maybe 30s so tiredness is less of a problem than for a BBC boy
S
Of course Im out there showing footage all of the time good and bad..
http://www.vimeo.com/8453166
http://www.vimeo.com/7769606
Etc
Which is more than we see from the other makers
S
Tom, your suggestions may make you feel better about not spending money, but if somebody is reading the gear review it may be because they have a need for the gear and it’s functionality. Why should I leave my camera at home to do a handheld shot? The gear is out there to make it work. A lens hood isn’t going to hold the same set of filters I use on any other film or video camera, or attach an eyebrow to help protect my lens from a backlight or kick, so it is relevant.
But the one that really gets me is the idea that you can pull focus by tapping keys on a laptop, maybe in a talking head interview, no forget it, not even then. Motion control repeatable moves, thats it. Try running down the street with a laptop attached to your camera because a follow focus is too big and bulky.
People will make amazing movies with no money or gear, and they will do the same when the sky is the limit. You seem to have found what works for you, but don’t go thinking that your way is the only way.
Hey Tom,
I actually like your no frills money saving suggestions but I was wondering. I just tried using the software utility via USB, are you suggesting an assistant pulls focus from the software? using the buttons in software or pull focus from the ring and use the monitor in software to view? I notice the camera is pretty loud “click-click” as you pull focus from software. Also I couldn’t find anywhere in the software to set your marks. So just holding down the button with my mouse and then letting it go when I think I hit my mark yielded not-so-good results.
I appreciate your suggestions for money saving though but I don’t think that software works good enough for a follow focus. If there is something I’m missing like if you can set marks or if you know a software that does this I would be very interested in it.
I think Tom has it dead on. All shooters, at all levels, are looking to understand what has happened. This “revolution” will only go on to change how things are done, as the doors have now been blown open and pro images can be made on $600 cameras that are being compared to 35mm film cameras. Meanwhile the Zacuto’s and RRMicros are making a ton of money as we try to turn these little cameras into film cameras instead of finding out how best use them.
The cameras end up being the cheapest part of the deal. And we slam more and more junk on them instead of finding out what they do best. The guy I bought my slide dolly from uses a cinch tie and a marking card as his follow focus. Works great. And I agree that the best accessory for these light weight cameras are the glide cams. Remarkable shots, once you learn how.
Also the software that ships with the Canons is the way to go. In the next rev I’m sure they’ll let you capture with it and rename and review the files instantly on a nice 17″ monitor the way that On Location did in the Adobe suite. I was never sure why that didn’t catch on.
It’s a remarkable time to be involved with making images. As with most things, the easiest is probably the best. But we all love our toys and none of us seem comfortable with not having to buy the newest bunch of contraptions. The $3400 Zacuto rig seems cheap by pro film or video standards, but is silly when you stop and step back, as Tom has correctly suggested, and look at the forest/tree issue for a second.
You could just put the money in your pocket or take the family on a trip to Italy.
And shoot some stuff for fun.
Tony
What??!!!? RedRock asked (or allegedly legally threatened) to have their review removed. Wow. Their review must have sucked.
It tells you loads about a company and their product when instead offering a counter argument to a review, they have it yank. Have you ever know of any other company yanking bad reviews of their products? Car companies? Movie companies? Shocking.
I wonder if that’s how RedRock treats their customers too? Or how flawed their products must be.
I used to have a high opinion of the company. That’s dashed.
I WILL NEVER BUY A REDROCK PRODUCT
What are they hiding?
Martin Kunert
There was some debate over configuration
The problem with this review is the boys seem to have one method of shooting in mind, big rigs, lots of mass
One method and one method only
(To be fair this is a Cinema 5d website and that is a Cinema style of shooting)
All the RnG / Guerilla Kits (including mine), not intended for ‘cinema shooting’ where therefore marked down heaviliy - in a manner that could seem to be unfair and makes the rigs look bad when that context is not considered
Little mention was made by the reviewers that the rig companes (mine/RR and probably others) also sell different configurations of rig more geared to their desired shooting method
There was also some mention of the RR clamp quality - when compared to rigs twice the price - again RR were marked down for quality while the other rigs were not marked down for price
if you divide the stars by the cost the table of winners comes out very different with most rigs getting a similar cost per star
A Ford Focus is a great car but could get poor marks in the ‘4X4 magazine mud pluggers review’, Ford are best of keeping that car out of that review same is true here
I think RR cost about $250 per star compared to $330 per star for vocas with DVTech and HIR coming in at less than $200 per star !
The review did not only feature one shooting style but two, namely “The tripod setup” and “Handheld”. That the reviewers probably have a specific type of shooting style they prefer is normal and that is also valid because it is their review and their evaluation - but with the many detailed information the review provides everybody should be able to draw his own conclusion which rig fits his personal needs best.
The different prices of the rigs already went into the evaluation as the Price/Value criterium and in my opinion this is the way it should be but opinions differ
I see no reason that as you brought that example the Redrock Micro clamp quality should be evaluated in a different way than the one of cheaper or more expensive equipment - the quality should be evaluated separate from the price/value of a product, if the quality is lower but the price also than the price/value might be the same.
I agree that they have their style of shooting - it is not the same for everyone and they dont really make clear what it is
Jonhnie is a BBC stringer - which proably means he does a lot of standing round while a dull reporter interviews people - the bbc news is of course ‘radio with pictures’
he has picked a rig for that use - particularly liking the arms down low rigs which are less tiring to use if you hang around for hours with the rig
Fair for his particular ‘handheld’ use - that is actually an ENG style - Cinema use sticks for such static shots
On the stress level Cinema Shooting is different too (I have been on F35 shoots handheld - not me operating) the shot is performed and the rig put down or given to an AC so the stress can be higher in exchange for a more interesting shot angle
but that is only one kind of handheld - what about lowmode?walking ? running? whip pans ?
We really needed some footage tests
——
On the RR clamps I really cant comment, what I do see is that on some joints vocas use the correct and expensive serrated teeth clamps - I have seen RR configurations where the clamp is not appropriate for the forces applied - torque should never be applied to a single rail with a regular clamp
Look at rigs like the Element technica (gimbal shoulder mount) or watch BTS from District Nine or something - the operator does not clamp their arm by their sides because that method is poor for walking shots
Great review - thanks for all the work…
I’m surprised though that no manufacturer has made a servo for the zoom and/or focus. This motor driven method would enable the cameraperson to position the control in any location plus eliminate the drag associated with mechanical levers and gears.
Looks like the Vtec for now!
To: Brian Valente from Redrock Micro
I’ve considered your products in the past - have visited your company’s website often - but for whatever reason I have purchased other manufacturer’s equipment.
Redrock Micro’s “Brand” is what people outside of the company think about your product. While I wasn’t impresses, I hadn’t closed the door to considering RRM. Now, I am wondering what it is you are trying to hide.
Hmm, the implications of this review are significant. I for one have been deliberating about spending 3000 GBP with in the next week and the results have certainly cast doubts over the way I was leaning. I had pretty much decided that I was gonna go for a Cinevate DSLR rig / durus FF together with one of their slider systems. Your concusions about their products are very dissappointing to someone about to spend a lot of hard earned cash and is making me think twice, being based in the UK I can’t just pick up these different rigs and test ‘em for myself so the power of reviews should not be underestimated.
“kramssov:
Even if Redrock Micro now seems to threaten the reviewers with legal actions which is totally the wrong reaction in my opinion and puts them in a very bad light - their gear was reviewed in a differentiated way and on a very feature by feature basis - in MY opinion”
Tell me more - legal action, this is now becoming just laughable and everyone is just losing ALL credibility.
Steve - you should have just left it at your first post. I totally respected your position with great clarity. Now it just looks like your trying to bring your toys back to the party.
Why oh why is everyone just taking this so damn seriously. As a punter you do your research, I can’t believe that anyone as a pro in this industry would base their entire future production output on purchasing from ONE review - I just don’t believe it.
Whatever about the winning entry ‘leaves their kit with the reviewer’ - I do believe in their humble opinion they have given their review. Good or bad, accept or disagree, take it or leave it, lets get a life here - it’s not life or death.
You could equally have had a thread on this forum that any of these companies products were rubbish. Some people would have agreed, some wouldn’t.
I do appreciate that companies may feel they need to defend their position - and are doing it right here on this forum. I do not see Sebastian doing a RED and removing any thread that Cinema 5D feel like. That has to be commended.
Whatever happened to free speech. Lets just move on.
So where have the other 85+ posts gone? I am all for editing and keeping threads clean and tidy but maybe these should have been moved to the forum rather than just deleted? Or is it for legal reasons?
page one ?
It’s all about web presence. Lets face it, the first point of contact for people in the market for new kit is the web. A high web presence is what seems to matter, look at Bedrock and Zap-you-too, the higher the profile, the higher the prices; unless you are a company such as SmallHD who appear to have an extremely high professional web presence without enrolling the usual bunch of self promoting 5D2 leaches. I urge Cinema 5D members to go back to basics and use this site for what it was intended for. It’s not the political bitching platform that unfortunately some people think it is! Meanwhile, what’s your favourite lens cloth?