DSLR RIG REVIEW
Important note
This review is a documented opinion of three professional cameramen, about DSLR gear tested over the course of a month. We had no relations to any of the companies that would affect this review. It is unbiased, and all products were tested equally.
Upon request of Redrock, our opinion and findings about their gear has been removed. Please refer to the Redrock pages of the review for further details.
Index
Index and Editorial
Introduction
First Contact
Arri 1/4
Arri 2/4
Arri 3/4
Arri: Verdict
Chrosziel 1/4
Chrosziel 2/4
Chrosziel 3/4
Chrosziel: Verdict
Cinevate 1/5
Cinevate 2/5
Cinevate 3/5
Cinevate 4/5
Cinevate: Verdict
Genus 1/3
Genus 2/3
Genus: Verdict
Redrock 1/4
Redrock 2/4
Redrock 3/4
Redrock: Verdict
Vocas 1/5
Vocas 2/5
Vocas 3/5
Vocas 4/5
Vocas: Verdict
Chrosziel Handheld 1/3
Chrosziel Handheld 2/3
Chrosziel Handheld: Verdict
Cinevate Handheld 1/3
CinevateHandheld 2/3
Cinevate Handheld: Verdict
DvTec 1/6
DvTec 2/6
DvTec 3/6
DvTec 4/6
DvTec 5/6
DvTec: Verdict
Half Inch Rails 1/4
Half Inch Rails 2/4
Half Inch Rails 3/4
Half Inch Rails: Verdict
Redrock Handheld 1/3
Redrock Handheld 2/3
Redrock Handheld: Verdict
Vocas Handheld 1/5
Vocas Handheld 2/5
Vocas Handheld 3/5
Vocas Handheld 4/5
Vocas Handheld: Verdict
Editorial
Sebastian Wöber here, the creator of Cinema5D. I’m a cinematographer based in Austria and I brought this site to life a year ago. At Cinema5D, we are all about shooting video on a DSLR camera. We strive to support everyone who shares that vision.
Gear is such an important part in shooting good movies and there is so much crap on the market by now. I really felt the necessity, and responsibility of my position to review as much as possible. It took three months to get here and unfortunately, I didn’t get to review all of it but I hope I can help you and the whole DSLR community to move in the right direction.
I had Jared Abrams our cinema5D news guy to edit this text. I want to note that English is not my native tongue. So please forgive any odd language you come across and I hope you understand and enjoy this review.
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Sebastian Kubatz January 20, 2010
very interesting.. thanks for all your work
kramssov January 20, 2010
What a tremendous amount of information, thank you!
sanj January 20, 2010
Awesome, thanks for this hugely extensive information.
This answered literally dozens of questions for me.
morganmoore January 20, 2010
Seb – fantastic amount of work well done I know you have been hard at it for a month
Ive posted a few comments on you critique of my rig here
http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9534
once again well done
SMM
john January 20, 2010
Thanks for the great read.
My only grip are the typos. Why are there typos? Are you not typing this in an editor like Words?!
I guess film and English/grammer doesn’t go hand in hand.
morganmoore January 20, 2010
its a gripe not a grip – seb is austrian his english is far exeeds my austrian
jared January 20, 2010
I used Word and did the best I could in the time I had. I will look again and fix any mistakes out there. Was there anything specific that bothered you?
Joel January 20, 2010
“Words”
You mean word.
brand0 August 20, 2011
Before you become a smart-ass you should learn how to spell “grammar”, otherwise you come off as a bit of an idiot. There are actually two mistakes, one in spelling and the other in grammar. This is not a particularly good sentence anyway but it should read “I guess film and English/grammar don’t go hand in hand”. Including the errors pointed out by others here, that’s a grand total of 4 mistakes in 36 words about someone making mistakes. Pretty good, nice work!
This reminds me of the story of Dan Quayle, US Vice President at the time, touring a school and leaning over a student to correct his spelling by adding an “e” to the word potato.
Joe Bailey, Jr. January 20, 2010
Guys, thanks for the hands on reviews.
However, I think you may have been a little cursory and unfair with the review of the Cinevate gear. I personally have had great success using the Cinevate’s shoulder support, proteus rails and follow focus with a 7D, in very demanding conditions (for a concert film). What I like about Cinevate’s gear is that’s it is interchangeable and adaptable. Before DSLR rigs were even en vogue, I was able to craft one out of my Proteus rails that had before used with my EX3. I’ve since tweaked my setup, and will likely tweak it further–that’s the nice thing, all of the parts are modular.
I’m glad you did note, briefly, the quality construction of the Durus FF, because I don’t think you’ll find a more solid follow focus. Yes, it is larger than most DSLR-specific ones, but you could use it on a film camera and not feel like you’re stretching. And it can work seamlessly with a DSLR with a quick pitch adjustment. Specifically, I thought it unfair that you guys mentioned that quality, but then didn’t take the time to configure it for DSLR and panned it on the ratings.
For you, the open-forum configurability of Cinevate became its achilles heel. Yes, it requires some setup, but the nice thing is, using bits of grip (that aren’t obscenely expensive) you can set a rig up to fit your needs. I’m 6’5″ with long-ass arms, so I can configure the support accordingly; my DP is considerably shorter, so I can modify the rig to fit his ergonomics.
I can understand wanting to just buy a rig and go, and I believe Cinevate now offers kits that can do that, but I, for one, appreciated being able to build my own rig the way I wanted it. And, especially for the price, I can vouch from experience that Cinevate gear is of very high quality.
All of that said, I appreciate you guys covering such a variety of manufacturer’s gear. I’m just afraid that in that approach you may have failed to consider that someone purchasing this gear will, indeed, have the time and take the time to configure it properly. Even with a quick call into customer support, or watching a brief video readily available online to help set it up.
I can say with absolute confidence that no one is likely to offer better hands-on customer support than Hubert and the boys in Ontario. And that’s coming from someone who lives hundreds of miles away–but when I have a question, and call or email, they respond–promptly. I wish I could say the same for every company I deal with…
Thanks again, though, for your work. Review are often subjective–and especially those star ratings can often be misleading–But I appreciate your efforts for independent filmmakers. ~JB Jr.
antiplastik January 20, 2010
Hi Joe Bailey Jr.
Thanks for your comments on our work.
I agree that reviews are subjective, but we tried to stay as objective as possible, serving people with info about what we think works and what doesn’t. It’s obvious to us that people have many different opinions about gear.
We are 3 cameramen with different opinions and what you find in this review is a mix of those. I think because of this fact and our experience this will reflect a lot of how most filmmakers will feel about the gear.
I wanna suggest that it’s possible you haven’t used much other gear than Cinevate.
Also I wanna say that I don’t think we were unfair in our testing, but it’s always difficult to serve everybodys wishes. We worked at the best of our knowledge and conscience and I stand behind what I wrote.
Sebastian
novasie January 20, 2010
Please give us this in PDF form!
antiplastik January 20, 2010
I will
novasie January 21, 2010
Sweet!
Chris January 20, 2010
I wonder if the star ratings may have anything to do with personnel relationships that you have created with companies.
antiplastik January 20, 2010
No
riflman January 21, 2010
I think that he had enough good things and enough bad things to say about everyone. The tricky part will be finding a combination of parts that will work well together. I think everyone who has used this gear would agree. It would be nice to have a rig based on components offered by each company but it’s difficult because of some non standard sizes of rails and such. This is very likely engineered and a well though out business decision as well.
milk January 20, 2010
and where is the korean rig?
morganmoore January 20, 2010
http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=1474&page=50
is where is is
jared January 20, 2010
It’s called the “Magic Spider” on page 50. Thanks.
Lars Steenhoff January 20, 2010
Nice review, the Arri FF looks very nice!
Billy January 20, 2010
I am a big fan of Vocas gear too. The rails are super sturdy and even hold my ring light as seen here: http://tinyurl.com/ycjyplh
Another thing about Vocas… their staff is very helpful and responsive. They take pride in their gear.
Great post!
zackmctee January 20, 2010
I’m surprised at the vagueness on the magic spider stuff, everything in the forums points to that dude’s stuff being super legit.
antiplastik January 20, 2010
People make mistakes it seems.
Justin A January 21, 2010
Thanks for all your work.
photonashville January 21, 2010
W.r.t. Chrosziel page 2, all my Canon lenses (8+ total) have focus rings which turn in the same direction as all my Zeiss lenses (4 total). Not sure how it is different for you.
antiplastik January 21, 2010
Hi Photonashville,
You are right, thanks for letting me know! I was sure the Canon went wrong but they go right as well. It was the Nikon’s that went wrong. I corrected that in the review.
photonashville January 21, 2010
Also wanted to say, tremendous resource that will be viewed and referenced worldwide. What that means is that Zacuto and Indifocus especially should have participated, it would have been in their best interest. It sends the wrong message when you are openly not a part of something like this. Perhaps it would have helped Zacuto to better justify some of their equipment’s prices and have a comparison to the Magic Spider knockoff versions.
Sani January 21, 2010
Will you check also the rig from Shape? its called Sumo II I want to buy it soon.
antiplastik January 21, 2010
There won’t be a review now for a while. You can’t imagine how much work that was. Unless he contacts us and we find his stuff very good.
inero January 21, 2010
Wow, Thanks…I’m a bit surprise with some of the outcome…What a great undertaking.
rhervag January 21, 2010
thank you for doing such a big roundup, that was a very informative read with surprising outcome indeed
riflman January 21, 2010
Funny thing is, I think Zacuto would have probably done very well in this review compared to some others. As someone who was considering purchasing some of their gear, and after reading the honest reports were strengths and weaknesses were revealed on EVERY product, I am now reluctant to proceed with a zacuto purchase. Add to that the comments made by Steve, which not only showed total arrogance, but also a lack of confidence in his own products to compete at all levels (his fear is clearly in the area of value for the dollar) and his fairly judgmental attitude and accusatory suggestion that you would skew the results in favor of a sponsor, lead me to believe that he is somewhat lacking in character and that any positive reviews I read in the future that appear in sites where he is a sponsor, or by people who Zacuto “sponsors” should be completely discounted as fraudulent and simply a paid advertisement and endorsement. We all know that Zacuto places a LOT of equipment in the hands of some notable professionals (as do other vendors), but by his own remarks, are we not to assume that it is simply a contra deal (product or ad placement) for the endorsement?
If I were Steve I would do three things:
1) Apologize for his accusatory remarks;
2) Send you some gear for an honest review;
3) Pay close attention to your comments and use the review in its entirety to continue with R&D on their own products while addressing both their weaknesses and those of their competitors to try and make even better equipment in the future.
Thank you so much for all of your hard work on this!
Sheldon Charron,
Winnipeg, Canada
David January 21, 2010
I don’t think saying that Zacuto has a lack of confidence in their products is quite right, since they do offer a lifetime warranty on all Zacuto products; even if it is damaged by the user becaues of user error or accidents.
radmotion January 23, 2010
I completely agree with you Sheldon (riflman)
Whenever I see Steve Weiss open his mouth, whether in written word or video form, the amount of bulls*** to proceed is ridiculous.
What he meant to say in his comment is “Zacuto is uncomfortable participating in any review in which we cannot have complete control over”
Paul Schneider January 23, 2010
The zucato stuff is top notch. I own a RedRock Micro FF and was shocked at how smooth and well built the zucato was in comparison. The stuff is more expensive, but really quite great. The z-finder is (in my humble opinion) the only loop style finder worth purchasing.
Feel free to buy whatever you want, but getting philosophical over follow focus companies seems kinda silly.
Monty January 21, 2010
Of course Vocas win. They are your biggest sponsor!
morganmoore January 21, 2010
Im a sponsor and a builder of another rig in the test.
Vocas is expensive and professional kit, standard of engineering is high and (if you are happy with a large heavy rig) it is probably the best engineered
Having been involved in actually engineering these things i find it suprising that all rigs dont cost that much
Other manufacturers HAVE to cut corners to get the price down which had made them in some cases not ‘fit for purpose’
My own rig has take a different approach to the engineering to avoid making complex joints on a budget
For example the Vocas rig has serrated plate rotating handles – just the plates cost $100 a pair to buy in
My design avoids them as cost of non rotating handles
Some of the other rigs try to offer the flexibiity of the Vocas while cutting the price of the engineering
Such an approach just cannot work (unless maybe you run a korean sweat shop and im not saying anyone round here does)
I can see that that rig should win for the test criteria
One can of course question the test criteria but that is a different story.
Of course if you want to do a test of Stars per Dollar there would be another winner..
S
kramssov January 21, 2010
Sorry but that is total nonsense. Many of the companies that were revieved are sponsors and others are not but there is absolutely no indication that this went into the evaluation of the products in any way. Your accusation is unsubstantiated and shows that you have not paid close attention that many sponsors got low ratings because their gear was not as good as that of other companies – sponsor or not.
riflman January 21, 2010
If they had a star rating for looks, I would give the vogus the fugly award. lol. That’s one thing I don’t agree with in the review for sure, is the editor’s praise about the good looks. The brushed aluminum looks cheap, and the leather handles belong on luggage or at the end of a bull whip. Ugh! Vintage gear. lol
riflman January 21, 2010
But let me clear, I don’t agree with the comment that the review is skewed. I agree with kramssov. The review slammed a couple of sponsors pretty hard and everyone got some points to work on , even vogus with the balancing and weights etc. I think using the word “perfect” was a little strong though and should be edited out. There is ALWAYS room for improvement. If not, we would not have this board to chat on now would we??
antiplastik January 21, 2010
Ill conside that perfect word.
antiplastik January 21, 2010
They are not our biggest sponsor, its the sum of sponsors that keep the site alive, not the single ones.
Monty January 21, 2010
Maybe you should have a disclaimer or statement of disclosure on your site which lists
Who’s gear you own?
Which gear you paid for?
Which gear you were given?
Who are your sponsors?
Monty January 21, 2010
The Vocas shoulder rig is not value money. 7 stars give me a break And I tried it a trade show, its uncomfortable. And looks like it was designed in a hurry in an attempt to capture the emerging DSLR market. Funny the ad for it appears the majority of times when I visit this website.
Monty January 21, 2010
Maybe you should have a disclaimer or statement of disclosure on your site which lists
Who’s gear you own?
Which gear you paid for?
Which gear you were given?
Who are your sponsors?
urbanzoofilms January 21, 2010
Good Work.
But what about that Gini Korean Rig? Its on the Pics but no review to that. PDF would be great!
urbanzoofilms January 21, 2010
ahh Magic Spider!
Myles January 21, 2010
Fantastic work guys.
Think I’ll steer clear of Zacuto.
FairPlay January 21, 2010
I was disturbed to read in the forum you have banned Cinevate as a sponsor. This really casts a shadow on the objectivity of this whole dslr review. While you may not like their products banning them is not the solution.
Many readers of this forum are happy users of their products. I think you have embarked on a dangerous course and doing damage to your reputation and that of Cinema 5D. Maybe this all has gone to your head and you are displaying the the sort of egomania and arrogance we normally associate with Steve Weiss from Zacuto.
Logan January 21, 2010
Agreed with this. You have just lost me as a visitor to your forum/site.
Nick January 21, 2010
Great, comprehensive review guys. Being a new a relative newcomer to the world of professional camera rigs, I’m pretty surprised by how much many of these manufacturers charge for some of their equipment however. Follow focus set-ups that cost more than the DSLR body itself? Really? I understand that these products must be manufactured precisely and perform to the standards of experienced operators/AC’s, but they’re ultimately simple devices and should by no means cost upwards of $1,500 and beyond. I can see an entire lightweight/DSLR-freindly shoulder-rig assembly with a follow focus for that (or maybe $2k max!), but a well-machined, yet simple follow focus for $1,650? Absurd.
antiplastik January 21, 2010
Well you’re right that those things are very expensive, on the other hand I think filming is a thing of precision and good gear helps you achieve that, like for example medical equipment I suppose.
I also think that those items should be cheaper and could be manufactured at lower prices but there hasn’t been a demand for this yet.
b0rderman January 21, 2010
this is a tremendous resource…many thanks
billpryor January 21, 2010
Tremendous article. I agree with your picks for the best overall system and the best value.
It’s too bad the guys at Cavision and Indifocus weren’t able to provide you with their products. I think both build very nice quality stuff at excellent prices. I just ordered a Cavision system from B&H, but had I read your article first, I might have gone with the DV Tec.
Steve Weiss January 21, 2010
We at Zacuto did not want to participate because the review was not by industry professionals that were independent of this website. When Sabastian contacted us he told me that he and some friend of his were going to be the reviewers and that seemed to us like their could be some possible bias, even unconsciously. Their was also some weird rule that if your product was picked as the winner Sabastian got to keep all of the gear. That just seemed very strange to us.
We would be happy to be involved with an independent review is someone were to organize it where no advertisers were connected with the reviewer or website.
Steve Weiss
opherba January 21, 2010
Disclaimer- I am Johnnie who was helping Sebastian to conduct the rig reviews. I am a member of the cinema5d community for 3 months and met Sebastian for the first time 3 weeks ago. I hope a friendship will develop after doing this rig review.
Hope I can use and enjoy one of you rigs soon.
Johnnie
morganmoore January 22, 2010
Steve you were probably wise to steer clear of the review – however with the benefit of hindsight your stuff would have probably got a great write up !
Sebs conclusion was really that gear in the top price bracket does the job while some other which takes the same principals and components and knocks them out at half the price does less well
I think you need to be out there more explaining the actual cost of engineering
The shame of this whole thing is that Seb just bit off a little more than he could chew, remember C5D is only a hobby for him that covers its costs from a little bit of cheap sponsorship
I am sure he is well intentioned but maybe a little short on resources to do this properly
BTW what is an ‘insdustry professional’ ? Someone with a big blog and no online reel ?
jared January 22, 2010
Well said Mr. Moore. What is an “industry Pro”? It is sad to see Zacuto kick ANY film maker to the curb.
radmotion January 23, 2010
I agree. Where is Steve Weiss’s reel?
Wes Howell January 22, 2010
Your stuff is ridiculously overpriced. I wouldn’t have sent it in for review either. 5k setups for a DSLR? Maybe if they were gold plated and had diamond inlays…. then it would finally make perfect sense.
riflman January 22, 2010
Steve. I’m glad you chimed in here, as I’m sure most of us WERE NOT aware of the free gear deal. I apologize for my comments earlier. If what I was suggesting were true, you would have probably been quite confident that your gear would be picked and would be out the cost of the rig. So in essence you COULD have probably paid to sway the reviewers. I’d like to know if any of this gear was kept. Obviously there are deals that happen all of the time, particularly in exchange for ads and such. As the owner of an ad agency, I broker many of them personally; however, my understanding was that there would be no “deals” here and the opinions would not be swayed in any direction. What’s more is that in leaving out this tidbit, it reflects poorly on you and your business, so I also apologize on behalf of the community.
I really like the way Phillip Bloom handled the LCDVF review, given his close personal and business ties with Zacuto. Kudos to you sir for the professional and business savvy way you handled the situation!
With highest regards,
Sheldon Charron
FairPlay January 22, 2010
I wondered how long it would take to Steve Weiss to turn up.
The hypocrisy of this is amazing. Steve’s idea of independent review would to be have his puppet Philip Bloom do it. Who makes token nice comments about other manufacturer’s products that don’t threaten his relationship with Zacuto to maintain the smoke screen of credibility
Just like Phil has made a Faustian deal with Zacuto. I hope Sebastian hasn’t followed his example and sold his soul to Vocas. It is sad it is becoming increasingly hard to find true independent opinion out there. I not sure if the the bloggers or the manufacturers are to blame
riflman January 22, 2010
That’s true. We buy ad space and do creative for clients in over 30 different monthly magazines, yet there are several that we don’t advertise in, that will absolutely REFUSE to include our clients products in reviews unless we buy ad space in the magazine. I tell them all the time, do the review, and if we can quantify an increase in sales resulting from (hopefully, confidently and independently in this case) a favorable review, then we MAY decide to buy some space. In other cases, even the ones we advertise in, will let us (on behalf of clients) write our OWN review, and they will print it as a story, provided we buy a full page ad, cover, etc. In newspapers, the would normally have to write ADVERTISEMENT or ADVERTORIAL at the top, but that rarely happens today either, so the public puts their trust in what they think is an independent reviewer’s report. As a PR man, and as a copy writer, you have to REALLY get creative when writing your OWN reviews for a magazine or website, when you KNOW that half the other reviews have been written by ad agencies and paid copy writers as well! lol
My job has been to make clients money but sometimes I just feel dirty.
Steve Weiss January 23, 2010
That’s just not true or polite FairPlay. Phil and I never hide the fact that we are friends but do not besmirch his character. He would never review something poorly because of that. He told me he received the LCDVF sent to him from Tonis and was worried it would be a conflict of interest. But I told him to do his review and he gave the LCDVF a very good review. He has also reviewed RedRock and other brands and also given them good reviews. And he has spoken out in videos on some of my products that he did not like, especially our Zeddie Wedggie (which he had even named).
john January 22, 2010
Yea, Sabastian seems kinda shady.
I doubt that he is a serious videographer or even has been on a real film set. There was a lot of ignorance about using some gears.
Lol, for instance, is he that dumb that he couldnt work some of the rig?
Come on! RTFM!
BTW, a video review would have been better. We are a film community after all.
radmotion January 23, 2010
Steve, as previously stated this is such a hypocritical statement. Your fears of reviews being swayed come from the knowing that you do the EXACT same thing. Also loitering in the comments section of a review you weren’t even a part of shows how much of an insecure little girl you are. Bitching to the wider community why you didn’t participate and publicly trying to bring Sebastian down.
Karma is going to be a bitch for you Steve.
dustylense January 23, 2010
But Steve, They did this review and Cinevate is a sponsor, and they gave Cnevate a poor rating. Here is what your review could have been IMHO..
Very well built! Best in the industry, BUT… So darn expensive that it’s almost OUT OF REACH for most users.
Steve, You’re losing sales to a guy in Korea, who builds kits that look like your stuff, and from what I hear, the quality of the rigs are outstanding.
Your tactical shooter is +$1000! Come on!?!?! For some pipes and some clamps? How about you guys at Zacuto get to the blackboard and design some stuff for us common folk, that we can afford. Simple yet effective gear with REASONABLE prices. I do like your follow focus and I feel it’s price is right. The Z-finder, the price is fair. But EVERYTHING ELSE you sell is just crazy! Think about just how many DSLR’s are out there? You gonna let a little man in Korea show you whats up?….FOr the price of the Tactical shooter (minus the z-finder, which is kinda the point of that tactical shooter) You could buy 3 or 4 korean rigs and make 100′s of configurations. Now, don’t come back and say his stuff is cheap compared to yours. With his gear and the same budget as yours, one would have backups upon backups.
Then there is Cory Easom. If this guy gets going and in full production, holds to his thoughts in price points, you kids at Zacuto will have just one more competitor to deal with. AND HIS STUFF LOOKS AMAZING!
Steve, I don’t think I’m alone when saying, descend the plane from the clouds a bit and think about how many DSLR’s are out there that won’t be mounted on Zacuto because your price points….
natxbrotha January 24, 2010
I think redrock did the right thing to pull the review. From what Steve Weiss mentioned, it sounds like it could have been reviewed in a biased light. I wish I could have read the review! Cinevate, Zacuto, Redrock, and all the others make really good stuff.
ATD3D January 21, 2010
I think he has made an enormous effort and we’re grateful. THANKS A LOT.
Now, I have to note that regardless of the “competitors” missing, has been too tough on Rig for Redrock Micro. Maybe if it had valued the Cinema Bundle version, and especially in reference to the prices in the face of Vocas. Others that are too expensive to be valued as the choice of editor. Same with Mattebox, but not particularly overvalued Vocas I think too.
Anyway congratulations on this piece of article and look forward to the criticis of the monitors.
ATD3D January 21, 2010
About Zacuto stuff, maybe they have rules “strange” but think that all that effort and publicity following the awards will be for free ??
Furthermore, I don´t know how good are the Zacuto rig, but more than 5K for a DSLR rig seems abusive. So to tell the truth do not miss in the article.
Low the price God Steve, dark times are on the horizon …
PD: I recently finished the 62 pages and I wonder why there are still so few replys ?!?
paragasd January 21, 2010
i still think you should include the Zacuto products for this review to be complete. I know that the zacuto guy opted out but they should reconsider. also you should also look at the hot rod base CSH solution which I have. rock solid and lightweight. there is no shoulder mount however.
Wes Howell January 22, 2010
IMO, I’ve also done a ton of research on the gear options available. I’m a serious hobbyist (Software by trade) and I need to justify plunking down money on this gear by getting decent stuff at a good price. (I’m paying for it out of my pocket, etc.) I’ve followed tons of the posts too… from the gini to the zaza slider, etc.. I love the site.
I have a few problems with the review -
This whole issue over sponsorship REALLY muddies the waters for me. Cinevate is banned and your favorite product (Vocas) is your new sponsor? If this is true – you really need to address this. I hope not
Let me start with Red Rock…
I am not sure you’ve been totally objective about the RedRock stuff.
The scores reflect a lot of your criticisms are heavily weighted on your opinions of their screws? Even the baseplate was given a score of 1 because you don’t like the screws. That really affected their overall score.
As someone ready to buy a (decent) baseplate for my DSLR that will attach to a tripod and hold my camera SECURE (oh yeah and the correct height please) their stuff looks clearly superior. I previously ordered some Proaim stuff that I haven’t been able to mount my 5d on. Not only did they send me the wrong order, (no riser or quick release as advertised) then tried to fix it and failed the 2nd time…(still no riser or way to mount 5D) now I’m waiting for a 3rd shipment with fingers crossed.. (emails aren’t as responsive as they were before I paid) I’m just gonna order the Redrock riser / baseplate etc and get it over with.
Even if the Proaim eventually gets here, the plate on their regular shoulder mount kit is more or less designed to mount video cameras not DLSR’s. These types of issues seem rampant on these rigs. Most of them seem to be aftethoughts or repurposed parts. I have my doubts that if I ever get the right parts…that it will hold my camera solid and straight.
Language barriers, geographic barriers, timezones…gear that’s sent with wrong parts…needs to be redesigned… HUH? How much is your time worth? I’m from Utah where people are known to jump over a quarter to get to a nickel… or to drive 10 miles to save 50 cents… but come on now. Someone has to be some emphasis on good quality engineering, design and service. I don’t think RR is getting enough credit in this regard.
Unless you just have tons of time on your hands and you want to save a couple hundred bucks..then you can write posts about how you had to find a translator, get 3 different shipments, then had to re-engineer it so it would work ok. I’m sure by the time you’ve invested that much time into it you’ll probably like it no matter what, yes? No thanks. The Gini rig? You’re giving the guy time to redesign it? Really? Buy from you because you can make sure we don’t get screwed? He’s been trying to gouge people for as much as possible on Ebay. (some pay $100 others pay $350??? for a bunch of 6″ screw-in rails?) And he gets a chance to redesign it? Come on now…
IMO, That RedRock DSLR baseplate seems to be a great piece of gear. Look how solid that will mount a DSLR (with locking pin as well) Bolts right onto rails giving your flexibility to move it back and forth on the baseplate. I still don’t know how you can skew their scores so much related to a baseplate…. Yeah, you don’t like the screws, so you give it a 1? The design of this baseplate as it relates to a DLSR seems better than anything else you reviewed, IMO.
Redrock also has their stuff in stock, it can be configured in any endless configuration, risers, offset, etc etc For example, how hard would it be to customize any of their rigs to your liking? Look at their handle offset on the stubling. That would fix your issue of accessing the FF on the Vocas gear, for example.
I can’t even find any info on Vocas online.
Anyway, I’m not on RR’s payroll, but it’s definintely at the top of my purchase list. I think their scores are too low and I am not sure you have given enough consideration to service, support and warranty.
Many companies seem to be offering crap… and I’d rather send my money to reputable companies that are engineering good solutions and continuing to expand and improve upon them.
paragasd January 22, 2010
where does one buy a vocas rig in the US, specifically NYC. i notice that a lot of people carry the matte box but that’s it…
jared January 22, 2010
Prosource in Fairfield CT. 203-335-2000. They do not have any DSLR stuff yet, they estimated a 2 week lag time for shipment. Pretty pricey. I priced out a rig without mattebox and it was over 2K. The handgrips alone are $795.
Shawn Wright January 22, 2010
Thanks for doing this. Great job. I like that you gave the hard truth on items rather than some watered down, take-care-of-sponsors approach.
Khoa Le January 22, 2010
On the DvTECH website, why is the price higher than what is listed on the review? Did they “suddenly” increase the price because people started contacting him? Heh….that’s a joke.
Danny Natovich January 23, 2010
We didn’t increase prices !
The $ 520 is for a basic configuration, you can find it here http://www.dvtec.tv/extreme.html
We made the DeLuxe configuration to make ordering easier after we realized that most clients like it with all the optional add-on, extra cost items.
It includes : Camera QR Mount, Velcro Belt, Back acc. tray and weight.
Sorry for the confusion…
antiplastik January 22, 2010
Unfortunately some companies don’t agree with Shawn Wright who says “I like that you gave the hard truth on items rather than some watered down, take-care-of-sponsors approach.”.
I’m being heavily criticized and judged and getting threats to remove the review and it seems to me that it’s mostly based on assumptions, personal opinion and facts twisted to appear in a different light.
I realize now how hard it is to reveal truth. People cannot just leave an opinion stand for itself, they’re crossing borders, force you until you give up.
I really did this review with best intentions, to serve the community, to know which ones are the best, to reveal rip-offs, to have a valuable read on the site, to gain more experience about rigs myself. I’m not sure weather it’s worth the trouble this is causing me to serve the community in that way.
Unfortunately I’m not in for half-true reviews, so I’ll rather do no further reviews instead of that.
About this other rumor I wanna say something too. It is assumed frequently in these comments that the review was biased. This really shows how sick this world is where you have to assume deception and egoistic motives around every corner. I understand that and you will have to take my word that this review is non biased, not by money or by befriending of companies or whatever. You’ll have to take my word or please leave this site and spread your hate somewhere else. I won’t reply on that topic no more.
I’m not hot for money, that’s not what I live for, neither are my colleagues. This is a non profit outcome project which was also an intention from the start. We kept the best rig for our own use in order to cover expenses like shipping costs (12 heavy boxes shipped international cost lots of money), custom duties (Cinevate gear for example cost 700€ customs alone cause they sent a lot), lights, food, gas bills over the time of a month, payment of English corrections, let alone the amount of hours of work that went into this project which I won’t start calculating here. As I said I’m not hot for money, neither are my colleagues and if there wouldn’t have been a winner (which it looked like at a point) we would have sent back all of it without exception. I might also add that this was even a point open for discussion from the start.
Criticism is ok, but these rumors and fast assumptions here cross a border at some points. We pointed out that others might like other things about the gear or have different opinions. All the fuzz about one or the other star rating, our reasons for our evaluations are clearly explained.
Many write that one product or the other was judged wrongly. You can think that and guess it, but since you haven’t had the chance to have all of them in front of you and to try them ALL out in comparison over the time of a month how can you claim that we’re wrong just like that?
Well, I did what I could guys, I’m clearly not a reviewer, the stars reflect our opinions, but to give evidence to every percentage of our opinions is just not my thing. You might not like that, but it’s all I could do, at a certain point you’ll have to trust us or not. I did what I could to write down as much as possible and to cover so much gear in the given time frame.
If you’re not content with what you read I suggest you do an evaluation on your own. You don’t have to believe or like this review. It’s here for the people who find use for it and trust our opinions. That’s it.
Sebastian
opherba January 22, 2010
Dear Steve
I kindly ask you to not criticize professionals you never met or know.
The only Zacuto product I own is the z-finder.
If you ever take the time and ask yourself why is it that I have to put a dirty old sock around the Z-finder thread (http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=1474&page=42) you will find out it is because of its poor design. Unfortunately no review made by other pros/sponsored pros or any picture in your web site could prepare me for the design surprise I had when I got it.
There is NOTHING personal here. I just hope generation 2 will have the thread covered and not be exposed to dust sand or what ever.
Sincerely yours.
Johnnie (one of the rigs reviewers).
Morten Carlsen May 20, 2010
I know why Z didnt want to enter into this here test.
I just came back from demoing a full blown zacuto rig.
I had read on Bloom’s blog that Z supposed to be tha bomb.
That bomb misfired.
The shoulder rig seemed clumsy at best and all those damn screws and joints really
had be going insane. It seemed quite in stable as well.
I also own the Z´Finder…. But I HATE HATE HATE it.
1) The holding frame KEEPS falling off. )Yes I did place something heavy on it the first 24 hours)
2) You CANT trust the ZOOM settings made when its on.(Yes I DID adjust it for my eyes )
3) Turning the sharpness adjustment wheel is so hard that the Finder will pop off while mounted and pull
the frame right off with it… A Joke
The Zacuto Follow focus (I Compared it directly with ARRI’s in the shop)is like a childrens toy.
Zacuto is a HYPE name that carries a price tag of a professional product.
I would NOT purchase anything with Zacuto written on it.
Morten
Dippen January 22, 2010
thanx for all this!
i’m currently using a monopod (closed up) with a 2.5 lb weight around the bottom. i am using it on the film i am dp’ing – trick of the witch. works wonderfully!
dippen
Dennis Wood January 22, 2010
I just wanted to take a minute here and thank everyone for the posts regarding Cinevate equipment. It’s obvious that many of you took some time out of your day to express your thoughts. The entire team is aware and appreciative of your support. I’ll continue to monitor for your questions and address them as I already do, regardless of where you post
Cheers,
Dennis Wood
FairPlay January 22, 2010
Sebastian you should of been up front with your readers from the start. Everyone should of been informed the condition of submitting gear for review was that you got to keep the gear that won. To back pedal and come up with lame excuses after being outed by Zacuto only compounds the mistake you made. It’s shame as you put a lot of effort into these reviews.
kramssov January 22, 2010
I can’t follow this train of thoughts – what exactly is the problem with him keeping the winner rig? The winner should be the best rig and why should he not want to keep the best rig?
Not the manufacturer dictates the conditions in this case and has an influence on the outcome of the review but the reviewer tells the conditions and is free to evaluate the different rigs freely – and that sponsors had no bonus per se was obviously shown.
This whole discussion gets more and more away from the real review and the verifiable observations the reviewers made about the gear of the different manufacturers and that is sad and in my opinion very unconstructive.
Philipp von Kap-herr January 22, 2010
What a great review, Sebastian !
Cannot believe marketplayers like mentioned above underestimate Cinema5D so much…
I own a couple of Zacuto products, e.g. baseplate (nearly military standard),
and I love them !!!
They did not take part this time – what ever all of us call it – such is life.
Philipp von Kap-herr
tanakan January 22, 2010
Thanks for this great review…
I have cinevate and red rock rig and you are right about everything… Most of cinevate gear is no better quality than indian made stuff ( specially their mattebox) and thing with red rock mattebox ( rails cant go bellow mattebox) is just driving me crazy from the first day
Caleb PIke January 23, 2010
I think it would be wise to keep in mind that this gear we are talking about should be seen in light of other products. RedRockMicro’s kits can all be used for a RED, Sony, Panasonic etc. Only their base-plate is DSLR Exclusive. Where as some of the rigs you have given best ratings to are primarily DSLR.
I am going with RR knowing I can use most of the kit for a SCARLET and my other cameras down the road.
Thanks for the reviews. Your pictures were 5 star and really helped!
-Caleb Pike
FairPlay January 23, 2010
Johnnie Behiri who assisted in these reviews should come clean on his relationship to Vocas and Dvtec.
opherba January 23, 2010
Fairplay I thought you would never ask
Now seriously speaking.
The only equipment I own from those companies and bought with hard earned money are the (half backed) DVtec multirig which I personally modified to my current documentary work done with the Canon 7d and the Vocas MB 250 mattebox.
You can take a look at this set up here: http://www.dslrnewsshooter.com/2009/10/23/bbc-freelance-cameraman-johnnie-behiri-on-dslr-video/
I own both products for many years now.
It is a small industry after all and if you visit professional exhibitions like IBC and NAB as often as I do you get to know some of the people. Thats how I got to know Dani Natovich and his company. Since I own the multirig and was looking for more elegant solution for my 7d work I visited the DVtec home page and found out they have a new solution for VDSLR. When Sebastian showed interest widening the review for the benefit of cinema5d readers and test the DVtec rig I contacted Dani and asked him if he would like to participate NOT KNOWING IF HE WILL AGREE, WHAT WILL HE SEND US OR WHAT THE OUTCOME OF THE REVIEW WILL BE. I am happy he did and his VDSLR solution is good for what it is.
Regarding Vocas. It was after IBC 2009 when I contacted them in order to get more details about the (prototype) rig I saw. All e-mail exchanged were a normal “customer-company” inquiry mails. Obviously I have more contact NOW since conducting the review (yes, we had many questions that needed to be answer regarding their equipment). Never met them before and hope to meet them in the future.
Fair play all the way!
Johnnie
Dan January 23, 2010
Sebastian it’s time to ban the trolls from Cinevate, Genius and Redrock. You have shown they make bad and overpriced product. So let it be fair is fair.
Edd January 23, 2010
Great reading!
Thanks for everything. Appreciate this to the max! Will definitely help me with my choice of rig later.
Cael Olsen January 23, 2010
I would really appreciate it if you all added a page to the beginning or end of the review as a disclaimer of any and all relationships the reviewers have with the companies whose products are reviewed. We deserve to know.
Steve Weiss January 23, 2010
In defense of my competitors and not for myself. These opinions are just Sabastian and the other reviewers. It’s just one opinion and not fact. I’m sure other reviewers would have different opinions. Sabastian just received the gear and my not have set it up the same way they would had they had used the gear for a month. When using gear you learn how it best works by using it. It takes time to break it in to your working style. Each of these designs are very different. Plus the use of these seems to be a problem as well. Not everyones kit is meant to be shoulder mounted, some are gorilla style, some are run’n'gun & some are shoulder mount. It’s very hard to do an apples to apples comparison with such different designs.
With all due respect, I have played with Cinevate & RedRock and I think they are both good systems (well made). I think what the problem we are having here is in tone. It’s very hard to convey tone in writing, especially across languages and I feel the tone may be interpreted in English as a bit harsh. Of course I mean no disrespect by that, Sabastians English is astoundingly good, probably better than mine (but tone is something that’s very hard to learn unless living in the English culture).
kramssov January 23, 2010
“It’s just one opinion and not fact.”
Sure, the review contains opinions – and the star rating is the most subjecitve part but alot of the information presented in this review are facts!
Just some examples that also relate to worse ratings of some of the Cinevate and Redrock Micro gear in comparison to other manufacturers tested that you mention very undifferentiated as well made and good.
Rails cannot go further than the filter stage with the matte box of Redrock Micro. The weight is one of the highest of all matte boxes reviewed and it is also huge.
The gearbox of the Cinevate Durus Follow Focus has a size that can make problems with short lenses and if you want to use a matte box at the same time. It does not help that the gear is reversable in that situation and other Follow Focus units perform better in this situation.
The matte box of Cinevate looks totally identical to the one by The CineCity. I own a matte box of The CineCity and I like it for the price it costs but it can obviously not be compared to matte boxes by Arri, Chrosziel, Vocas and also Redrock Micro qualitywise – but it doesn’t have to because it is much cheaper. The Cinevate Titan Matte Box costs $900.66 and even with the added swing away mount it is obviously not in the same league as other matte boxes in this pricerange.
And as some paint a very black and white picture of the review and who make it seem that some companies got bashed per se just one more example of the review:
“The little base you see in the picture underneath our camera is Redrock’s attempt on a DSLR base plate and oh we love it.”
Even if Redrock Micro now seems to threaten the reviewers with legal actions which is totally the wrong reaction in my opinion and puts them in a very bad light – their gear was reviewed in a differentiated way and on a very feature by feature basis – in MY opinion
morganmoore January 23, 2010
Hey Steve
Thanks for giving a sensible critique
My HalfinchRails rig is $500 including a focus solution, the Vocus appears to be $1335+$1650 ($2985) to include a focus solution
It happens mine is also built like a tank, goes hand lugguage only with a 5d and three lenses and is light enough to be with all day
The guys are right to mention the problems say with the Cinevat FF which is really for bigger cameras and however well made just wont fit a 5d and a 50mm 1.4 canon (I think)
Indeed Context and Tone are critical to the reviewing art
photonashville January 24, 2010
For all who are clueless about a Durus FF, it works just fine with small lenses. I know! It took me a little time to get it set correctly, but once done right, it works. All is needed to do.
- The gear must be flipped (which for Canon lenses is DESIRED anyway, Nikons are opposite.)
- Put Durus on left hand side, gear box flipped, mount any type of lens gear and it all works fine.
- Yes, a matte box will be a tight fit, but it works.
- It even works with a Zeiss 28mm 2.8 lens on Canon 5DII with matte box.
- A wider prime will most likely not work with Durus WITH matte box, so remove the matte box.
Part of me says Sebastian doesn’t know how to set up rigging. For Canon lenses, it is and has been desired to have a FF setup so that when you turn a FF knob forward (away from camera), you go to infinity, when you turn the FF knob towards the camera, you want close-up. Set it up that way and everything works fine. So where it won;t work well is with Nikon lenses mounted left, but Nikon is the one who has there focus direction opposite to nearly everyone else.
I am impressed with the Durus engineering. It’s built like a tank, can be used exclusively as a left hand side handle (which you cannot say for many FF units) and has a lifetime warranty (similar to Zacuto). I got it at the intro price and have no complaints.
I know from my experiences, my complaints on gear come from not spending enough time to understand how each thing is supposed to work or uniquely works. When time is used well and gear is understood, there will be very little major complaints. Sebastian has some complaints (not all) which are abrupt and novice in attempt.
kramssov January 24, 2010
So you are saying
“For all who are clueless about a Durus FF, it works just fine with small lenses.”
so the review is wrong in this regard and then
“A wider prime will most likely not work with Durus WITH matte box, so remove the matte box.”
which is pretty much what was written in the review. The reviewers criticized that this is not possible in special situtations like shown in the last image here
http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=1474&page=15
and that other Follow Focus units do not have this problem, so they perform better in this regard.
And the reviewers totally share your view about the quality of the Durus:
“The follow focus is really rugged unlike the rest of the rig. Cinevate also gives a lifetime warranty for this unit. We like that very much.”
If there was a possibility to change the configuration to also allow the use of the Durus with a matte box and a short lense like shown in the last image then that would be a great possibility of a constructive discussion after a review – and I am sure if it turned out that the reviewers were wrong they would even update the review but I think their critic is valid.
I think your more personal comment about Sebastian not knowing about the normal focus direction is unjustified and most likely false.
photonashville January 24, 2010
Very wide primes don’t work well with just about any matte box unless the front of the lens is extended into the filter stage or beyond. Has nothing to do with what FF is used or not. No purpose using the matte box on the wides if filters can’t be used, otherwise a standard lens hood will do the job. Many matte boxes will cause vignetting with wide primes. Which wides and which matte boxes cause vignetting varies. You have to choose with some wide primes, do I want FF or matte box, because both may not always be a reliable option.
From the review, it easily appears that the more complex, adjustable and configurable a rig the more difficulty the reviewers had in using, setting up, handling. That tells me more experience on their part is necessary prior to doing a review. When reviews are done like this in a formal method, readers will always expect expertise in the abilities of the reviewers.
The ratings given to all the gear are lame at best. If you choose 10 stars, then understand that equates to the classic school scale of 0-100. A 90-100, B 80-89, C 70-79 and so on. So why would good, usable, reliable gear get FAILING grades by receiving 6 or less stars. What exactly did they fail at. No footage was shot, so how did a lot of gear fail? LAME.
Geraud January 23, 2010
Thank you for this great review!
I miss shoot35 products on your review. I personally buy a big redrock shoulder rig and shoot35 blade and follow focus and for the price i prefer shoot35. I feel the same than you about redrock screws. Even if the price is low its a shame. My rig is very heavy, and the handle dont stay in place because of the screws (the new one). There also very hard to tighten.
If I was inform with a review like yours before…
IJP January 23, 2010
“kramssov:
Even if Redrock Micro now seems to threaten the reviewers with legal actions which is totally the wrong reaction in my opinion and puts them in a very bad light – their gear was reviewed in a differentiated way and on a very feature by feature basis – in MY opinion”
Tell me more – legal action, this is now becoming just laughable and everyone is just losing ALL credibility.
Steve – you should have just left it at your first post. I totally respected your position with great clarity. Now it just looks like your trying to bring your toys back to the party.
Why oh why is everyone just taking this so damn seriously. As a punter you do your research, I can’t believe that anyone as a pro in this industry would base their entire future production output on purchasing from ONE review – I just don’t believe it.
Whatever about the winning entry ‘leaves their kit with the reviewer’ – I do believe in their humble opinion they have given their review. Good or bad, accept or disagree, take it or leave it, lets get a life here – it’s not life or death.
You could equally have had a thread on this forum that any of these companies products were rubbish. Some people would have agreed, some wouldn’t.
I do appreciate that companies may feel they need to defend their position – and are doing it right here on this forum. I do not see Sebastian doing a RED and removing any thread that Cinema 5D feel like. That has to be commended.
Whatever happened to free speech. Lets just move on.
IJP January 23, 2010
So where have the other 85+ posts gone? I am all for editing and keeping threads clean and tidy but maybe these should have been moved to the forum rather than just deleted? Or is it for legal reasons?
morganmoore January 23, 2010
page one ?
Pete Burns January 31, 2010
It’s all about web presence. Lets face it, the first point of contact for people in the market for new kit is the web. A high web presence is what seems to matter, look at Bedrock and Zap-you-too, the higher the profile, the higher the prices; unless you are a company such as SmallHD who appear to have an extremely high professional web presence without enrolling the usual bunch of self promoting 5D2 leaches. I urge Cinema 5D members to go back to basics and use this site for what it was intended for. It’s not the political bitching platform that unfortunately some people think it is! Meanwhile, what’s your favourite lens cloth?
Brian Gay January 23, 2010
Hmm, the implications of this review are significant. I for one have been deliberating about spending 3000 GBP with in the next week and the results have certainly cast doubts over the way I was leaning. I had pretty much decided that I was gonna go for a Cinevate DSLR rig / durus FF together with one of their slider systems. Your concusions about their products are very dissappointing to someone about to spend a lot of hard earned cash and is making me think twice, being based in the UK I can’t just pick up these different rigs and test ‘em for myself so the power of reviews should not be underestimated.
Glenn January 24, 2010
To: Brian Valente from Redrock Micro
I’ve considered your products in the past – have visited your company’s website often – but for whatever reason I have purchased other manufacturer’s equipment.
Redrock Micro’s “Brand” is what people outside of the company think about your product. While I wasn’t impresses, I hadn’t closed the door to considering RRM. Now, I am wondering what it is you are trying to hide.
jimokeefe January 24, 2010
Great review – thanks for all the work…
I’m surprised though that no manufacturer has made a servo for the zoom and/or focus. This motor driven method would enable the cameraperson to position the control in any location plus eliminate the drag associated with mechanical levers and gears.
Looks like the Vtec for now!
Martin Kunert January 24, 2010
What??!!!? RedRock asked (or allegedly legally threatened) to have their review removed. Wow. Their review must have sucked.
It tells you loads about a company and their product when instead offering a counter argument to a review, they have it yank. Have you ever know of any other company yanking bad reviews of their products? Car companies? Movie companies? Shocking.
I wonder if that’s how RedRock treats their customers too? Or how flawed their products must be.
I used to have a high opinion of the company. That’s dashed.
I WILL NEVER BUY A REDROCK PRODUCT
What are they hiding?
Martin Kunert
morganmoore January 24, 2010
There was some debate over configuration
The problem with this review is the boys seem to have one method of shooting in mind, big rigs, lots of mass
One method and one method only
(To be fair this is a Cinema 5d website and that is a Cinema style of shooting)
All the RnG / Guerilla Kits (including mine), not intended for ‘cinema shooting’ where therefore marked down heaviliy – in a manner that could seem to be unfair and makes the rigs look bad when that context is not considered
Little mention was made by the reviewers that the rig companes (mine/RR and probably others) also sell different configurations of rig more geared to their desired shooting method
There was also some mention of the RR clamp quality – when compared to rigs twice the price – again RR were marked down for quality while the other rigs were not marked down for price
if you divide the stars by the cost the table of winners comes out very different with most rigs getting a similar cost per star
A Ford Focus is a great car but could get poor marks in the ’4X4 magazine mud pluggers review’, Ford are best of keeping that car out of that review same is true here
morganmoore January 24, 2010
I think RR cost about $250 per star compared to $330 per star for vocas with DVTech and HIR coming in at less than $200 per star !
kramssov January 24, 2010
The review did not only feature one shooting style but two, namely “The tripod setup” and “Handheld”. That the reviewers probably have a specific type of shooting style they prefer is normal and that is also valid because it is their review and their evaluation – but with the many detailed information the review provides everybody should be able to draw his own conclusion which rig fits his personal needs best.
The different prices of the rigs already went into the evaluation as the Price/Value criterium and in my opinion this is the way it should be but opinions differ
I see no reason that as you brought that example the Redrock Micro clamp quality should be evaluated in a different way than the one of cheaper or more expensive equipment – the quality should be evaluated separate from the price/value of a product, if the quality is lower but the price also than the price/value might be the same.
morganmoore January 24, 2010
I agree that they have their style of shooting – it is not the same for everyone and they dont really make clear what it is
Jonhnie is a BBC stringer – which proably means he does a lot of standing round while a dull reporter interviews people – the bbc news is of course ‘radio with pictures’
he has picked a rig for that use – particularly liking the arms down low rigs which are less tiring to use if you hang around for hours with the rig
Fair for his particular ‘handheld’ use – that is actually an ENG style – Cinema use sticks for such static shots
On the stress level Cinema Shooting is different too (I have been on F35 shoots handheld – not me operating) the shot is performed and the rig put down or given to an AC so the stress can be higher in exchange for a more interesting shot angle
but that is only one kind of handheld – what about lowmode?walking ? running? whip pans ?
We really needed some footage tests
——
On the RR clamps I really cant comment, what I do see is that on some joints vocas use the correct and expensive serrated teeth clamps – I have seen RR configurations where the clamp is not appropriate for the forces applied – torque should never be applied to a single rail with a regular clamp
morganmoore January 24, 2010
Look at rigs like the Element technica (gimbal shoulder mount) or watch BTS from District Nine or something – the operator does not clamp their arm by their sides because that method is poor for walking shots
Tom Warner January 24, 2010
Don’t buy any of these rigs! They’re all a big waste of money.
I’m afraid Cinema5d is going commercial, focusing its efforts on promoting the expensive, mostly useless gear that gear-makers want to sell rather than on the useful gear that will actually help 5d users get better footage.
If you want to shoot while walking with your 5d, you must put it on a gimbal rig. Only a gimbal rig will give you usable footage while walking and shooting with the 5d. (Ok, a gyro should also work, if somebody made one.)
If you want a hand-held rig that allows you to move the camera around any which way while you are standing (or moving around very slowly, think tai chi), get a steadytracker or fig rig. I prefer the counterweighting system of the steadytracker, but I know others prefer the fig rig.
If you want a follow focus, install the EOS utility on your laptop, plug it into your camera via USB, and use an EOS lens. This software even gives your focus puller an additional monitor on the laptop screen, which he can zoom for focus assist, without interfering with the main HDMI monitor which the shooter is watching. If you are shooting and pulling focus by yourself, learn to smoothly turn the focus ring on the lens with your hand (and make sure you have a sturdy tripod). A big geared follow focus will not give better results and might give worse (and adds lots of bulk and lots of cost, all unnecessary).
If you want to shoot while walking with your camera on your shoulder, leave your 5d at home and buy or rent a shoulder-mount camera. The right tool for the job.
You don’t need a rail-mounted matte box. Use a lens hood.
The only thing you might need rails for is to make your 5d look decked-out. It’s like putting a big, fake blower on a compact car. If you think that looks super-cool, go for it.
Cheers all,
Tom
morganmoore January 24, 2010
A lot of sense in what you say
Just you got it wrong on the Halfinchrails rig – the Tai Chi stuff is exactly what is for !
And you can tickle the focus which is critical on a 7 or 5
S
antiplastik January 24, 2010
I don’t agree with most that is written above. 5D is an excellent handheld camera, with the right rig and practice you can do great cinematic handheld motion without rolling shutter being noticed.
Well balanced rigs will allow you to shoot longer. If your balance is bad your hands will start shakin quicker. A good cameraman can reduce handheld shake a LOT compared to a bad (or unexperienced) cameraman, no matter what rig. But the right rig will help improve that motion.
morganmoore January 24, 2010
Seb – you know I agree the 5 is a great camera
I just think handhold gently a light agile rig is better than a big heavy one
a big heavy one is better for locks offs
If you a doing planned moves – cinema – it is very rare to do shots that are longger than maybe 30s so tiredness is less of a problem than for a BBC boy
S
morganmoore January 24, 2010
Of course Im out there showing footage all of the time good and bad..
http://www.vimeo.com/8453166
http://www.vimeo.com/7769606
Etc
Which is more than we see from the other makers
S
Copek January 25, 2010
Tom, your suggestions may make you feel better about not spending money, but if somebody is reading the gear review it may be because they have a need for the gear and it’s functionality. Why should I leave my camera at home to do a handheld shot? The gear is out there to make it work. A lens hood isn’t going to hold the same set of filters I use on any other film or video camera, or attach an eyebrow to help protect my lens from a backlight or kick, so it is relevant.
But the one that really gets me is the idea that you can pull focus by tapping keys on a laptop, maybe in a talking head interview, no forget it, not even then. Motion control repeatable moves, thats it. Try running down the street with a laptop attached to your camera because a follow focus is too big and bulky.
People will make amazing movies with no money or gear, and they will do the same when the sky is the limit. You seem to have found what works for you, but don’t go thinking that your way is the only way.
Justin January 28, 2010
Hey Tom,
I actually like your no frills money saving suggestions but I was wondering. I just tried using the software utility via USB, are you suggesting an assistant pulls focus from the software? using the buttons in software or pull focus from the ring and use the monitor in software to view? I notice the camera is pretty loud “click-click” as you pull focus from software. Also I couldn’t find anywhere in the software to set your marks. So just holding down the button with my mouse and then letting it go when I think I hit my mark yielded not-so-good results.
I appreciate your suggestions for money saving though but I don’t think that software works good enough for a follow focus. If there is something I’m missing like if you can set marks or if you know a software that does this I would be very interested in it.
Tony May 24, 2010
I think Tom has it dead on. All shooters, at all levels, are looking to understand what has happened. This “revolution” will only go on to change how things are done, as the doors have now been blown open and pro images can be made on $600 cameras that are being compared to 35mm film cameras. Meanwhile the Zacuto’s and RRMicros are making a ton of money as we try to turn these little cameras into film cameras instead of finding out how best use them.
The cameras end up being the cheapest part of the deal. And we slam more and more junk on them instead of finding out what they do best. The guy I bought my slide dolly from uses a cinch tie and a marking card as his follow focus. Works great. And I agree that the best accessory for these light weight cameras are the glide cams. Remarkable shots, once you learn how.
Also the software that ships with the Canons is the way to go. In the next rev I’m sure they’ll let you capture with it and rename and review the files instantly on a nice 17″ monitor the way that On Location did in the Adobe suite. I was never sure why that didn’t catch on.
It’s a remarkable time to be involved with making images. As with most things, the easiest is probably the best. But we all love our toys and none of us seem comfortable with not having to buy the newest bunch of contraptions. The $3400 Zacuto rig seems cheap by pro film or video standards, but is silly when you stop and step back, as Tom has correctly suggested, and look at the forest/tree issue for a second.
You could just put the money in your pocket or take the family on a trip to Italy.
And shoot some stuff for fun.
Tony
Steven Moore September 12, 2010
TOM you are without doubt completely correct…
Såladin January 23, 2011
Could you take a moment and clarify what you mean by the following?
“If you want a follow focus, install the EOS utility on your laptop, plug it into your camera via USB, and use an EOS lens. This software even gives your focus puller an additional monitor on the laptop screen, which he can zoom for focus assist, without interfering with the main HDMI monitor which the shooter is watching.”
Is this electronic focus pulling of some kind? Or a way to set up a better monitor and still use a whip? Not sure what you mean in your phrasing.
Many thanks,
JP
mickey123 February 20, 2011
Tom has it right – thank god someone sees through
all the hype about these rigs.
If you must do the handheld thing without a gimbal
get a steadytracker, or even an adorama shoulder mount(only 45$!),
otherwise go for the Glidecam2000 or merlin
(if you’ve got the $$ get the merlin vest as well).
Not sure about the follow focus suggestions, but
otherwise Tom is spot on.
thanks to Tom for this post
Hugh D January 24, 2010
there is a problem with this whole article, its starts here “We had no relations to any of the companies that would affect this review”…
hmmm, let me think, a company threatning legal action agaist a review?
I think by you guys not publishing it ould be a crime itself and people would lose confidence in cinema5D..
This is the internet, free from all the corporate stuff that goes on in the real world.
Shame on you red rock, you have lost my business and Im sure by pulling this stunt you have buried yourself overnight.
long live the freedom of speech…
A judge un court would laugh at a case like this..
Oh, of course, great reviews..
Brian Valente January 25, 2010
Hi everyone,
First, let’s get this legal question out of the way:
I want to be absolutely clear we never directly, indirectly, or even remotely suggested taking legal action as a result of this review, and we don’t have any interest in doing so. Any suggestion that Redrock is considering legal action is completely untrue. It’s not the right response, it’s not productive, and we’d rather continue to invest our time and effort in our products and services. We really have no idea where this idea that Redrock may threaten legal action came from, but it’s bogus.
Second, regarding our request to remove Redrock from the evaluation, it wasn’t an easy decision to make for us, and we know it won’t be a popular one. We have never made this kind of request before, so it is new territory for us as well. In the end we felt the misinformation and skewed results were more of a disservice to us and the community than leaving it be and having to defend it. In reviews, many people read the stars, look at the summary, and in this case probably come to the unfortunate conclusion they need to purchase a $5,000+ vocas rig that most can’t and (in our opinion shouldn’t) afford. A thoughtful response from us correcting inaccuracies would likely and unfortunately be lost in the details on some thread.
If you can stand reading a longer more detailed post, here are just a few of the specific reasons why we made the request, which we have also already shared with cinema5D:
- Not the Rigs we sent:
We never submitted anything the “tripod” category. In fact, we weren’t even made aware there was such a category until after the review was published. Apparently to fill the gap, the reviewers configured their own version of a Redrock tripod rig based on parts (some of which we didn’t even provide), and then were critical of what they created. What they ended up with does not represent Redrock, and based on the pictures they showed, I wouldn’t use or recommend what they developed either. Of the two rigs we did provide, the first was modified from the configuration we sent (see below), and the second one (theEvent) wasn’t even included in the review.
- Changed rig configurations provided:
One of the concerns stated the review on the eyeSpy rig was that it didn’t sit flat when put down, due to a single handgrip configuration. The rig we sent for review included two handgrips and the handlebar (which you can see in their picture on the “first contact” page) which allows it to be balanced when set down, but for unknown reasons this was later removed for the evaluation portion. In addition, no mention was made that the Redrock eyeSpy rig is the only one that can be directly attached to a tripod using the integrated baseplate in the shoulderpad – a feature we specifically designed to allow easy setting down of the rig and fast change between shouldermount and tripod. This misrepresents our product and its capabilities.
- The Price/Value evaluation doesn’t ring true.
Price/value is what you get for your money. The arri follow focus received six stars for price/value, when the price of just the follow focus is nearly $3,000. The most deluxe version of the Redrock eyeSpy rig at $1450 includes follow focus, shouldermount, DSLR offset, counterbalance weights, handgrips, lens gears, and other accessories, and yet receives a lower price/value rating. In our opinion this is simply misleading and inaccurate.
If you spend $3,000 for a follow focus, you should expect it will be exceptional. Redrock has always focused on providing great quality products with price as one of our primary design criteria.
- Limited evaluation criteria, which is still a mystery
Important criteria are missing from the evaluation, such as the ability to expand or customize the rig and add features, and the ability to use the equipment on both DSLR and video cameras. In fact, it would have been great if they asked us (all of us, really) what criteria to include. All criteria may not be critical for everyone, but helps to explain what the rigs were intended to do, and what the companies
After seeing the review our first reaction was to request a copy of the evaluation criteria and rankings. After two additional requests, we sadly have still not received a copy of the criteria and ratings as of this writing. We still hold out hope it will be sent to us.
We stand behind our products 100% and are committed to quality and affordability, and to continually improving our offerings. Our recommendation and hope is that everyone will have the opportunity to see and use Redrock products in person whenever possible. We attend as many shows as we can (NAB, Cinegear, HDExpo east and west, ramping up on PDN, etc.) and love for people to try them out and give us feedback. Rent Redrock from companies who provide it if you want to try it out first. Read several reviews to get a broad perspective. We stand behind our gear and believe it’s a great value for a great quality product. We believe in objective reviews that are transparent to all, objective, and without personal gain, and expect many future offerings as well.
I also want to add the cinema5D community is a really great resource for everyone, and we remain fully supportive. We were one of the original sponsors (if not the first), and hope to continue doing so in the future. Sebastian and his group have done an excellent job in creating a place for sharing information that benefits both users and the folks who supply equipment.
If you’ve read this far, thanks for your patience and in hearing us out.
Brian
Redrock Micro
morganmoore January 25, 2010
http://www.redrockmicro.com/dslr/index.html#eyespy seems to have one handle and the delux one has a FF ?
Adam January 29, 2010
Brian,
An Arri MFF-1 does not cost $3,000, it costs $1,800. I know because I purchased one (at a better price than that). It’s dishonest to represent the cost of a competing product as so high, and then make comparisons about the price vs. quality based on that dishonesty.
All,
That said, I just worked a shoot where one 7D was using a Chrosziel LWS and Arri MFF-1 (mine) and the other 7D was using a RedRock baseplate and Follow Focus v2. The difference was night a day. Yes you pay for quality, but in my opinion, every single dime is worth it. The Chrosziel/Arri gear is MILES ahead of RR’s offerings and should be represented as such, because it’s fact.
You get what you pay for and I saw that first hand this past week. I couldn’t be happier with my purchases.
Cheers,
Adam
Phil May 4, 2010
Thank you for explaining your reasonings. I own the Field Cinema Bundle (carbon-fiber edition) and, thought I see some issues with it, agree that the value of the follow-focus alone is worth full stars in any kit you sell under $3000.
I don’t understand why you would send cinema5d an eyespy with two handles, that seems dishonest since you sell it with one. If your old eyespy had a handle, you should just have left that criticism out of your post, because by January you weren’t even selling that rig.
I wish I could have seen the original review, but if your response is accurate, I will be boycotting cinema5d.com before I would boycott your products.
I’m not saying I’m a Redrock fanboy, either. My next rig will be a Zacuto, but Redrock is cheaper, and I believe has more VALUE than any other brand I have used
danap January 25, 2010
As a (former) customer of Redrock, with a lot of money invested in Redrock equipment (shoulder rig, two set of rods, eyespy setup, new baseplate for D and Micro followfocus version 2) and a outraging customer experience when it comes to shipment,delivery and customer follow up (or lack of such see my former post http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5836 )…..I am not surprised with this new desperate move from Brian Valente. Yes the screws of Redrock rig suck terribly ! Yes, there are problems tightening AND loosening the screws ! Yes, there are also problem tightening the screws so that the crabon fiber rod do not rotate freely in the diverse handgrips! Yes Redrocks business communication sucks!
I think also, unheard here in Europe, that Cinema5D compliance with Redrock’s “kind request” to remove the review (motivated by their love for “fee speech”) also a wrong move. The only favour Redrock should have obtained is to respond to the review and ample opportunity comment space to express their criticsm.
There are fundamental aspects of freedom of speech in the public sphere that some funny U.S. based companies have problems to accept (Redrock is sadly not the only member of this club). I ask therefore cinema5D to re-publish this review in the name of the freedom of internet and public speech.
danap January 25, 2010
Sorry for the typos in my comment. Nio “Edit” knob on this page
Brian Valente January 25, 2010
danap
Just PM me personally and we will address your issues. As I said we stand behind our products.
Many of the concerns of the previous thread understandably center around our previously long lead time from order to delivery. We are working to address this by making shipments and payment happen as close to simultaneous as possible. We can take this up in the separate thread you posted or via PM.
Thanks
Brian
Lindsay Mann January 26, 2010
Brian, I was literally about to order the Redrock mount from your website when I found this updated post. I came to make one last final decision and noticed your entry had disappeared.
I am a longtime customer and was there with you in the beginning. Now I find myself thinking twice about buying something from Redrock because you pulled this entry.
I’m not going to get into China vs. Google and net neutrality, but I think shooters and customers have a right to see what’s out there. Give the people some credit. We don’t think everything we read on the internet is true. But we deserve the chance to make our own decisions. Now instead of being an option, you simply don’t exist.
Thanks.
bvalente January 26, 2010
Hi Lindsay
We’ve done our best to be clear about our reasons for this rather extraordinary situation. Fortunately you are close by several of our resellers, and I recommend that you stop by and check out our gear firsthand, which is always the best option. PM me if you need more details.
Thanks
Brian
kvibeproduction January 26, 2010
If the reviewers can send the information out to someone else, we can post that review on a different thread.
opherba January 26, 2010
Dear Brian.
The eyeSpy rig configuration (with one handle) is the one Redrock shows in its home page.
http://www.redrockmicro.com/dslr/index.html#eyespy
To remove any further doubts that this is the Redrock proposed setup can you please be kind and give the readers a link to the instruction paper that comes with the product.
Thanks.
Johnnie Behiri
bvalente January 26, 2010
Johnnie
All of our documentation and tutorials are at start.redrockmicro.com
There isn’t just one proposed setup. We offer both single and dual handgrip options for the eyeSpy, along with a lot of other accessories. You can see the dual handgrip option here http://bit.ly/4R5Rsl Having many options to configure what you want is part of what we think makes a good choice for support rigs.
Brian
opherba January 26, 2010
Dear Brian.
May I suggest that all official eyeSpy setup pictures/videos and Product Assembly Card that comes with the set will show the rig with dual handgrip unlike the following:
Document: http://www.redrockmicro.com/start/resources/eyeSPYDELUXEBundleAssemblyCard.PDF
Tutorial on Vimeo
http://www.vimeo.com/6677199 which clearly shows that your DSLR kit has 1 handgrip only.
Many thanks!
Johnnie
Jon Waters January 26, 2010
I can empathize with both parties.
Red rock do sell to the high end and the review is just opinion.
IJP, maybe like me, you are not from the US where the legal industry has a strong hold on the wallets of the country. If I was threatened with a legal suit I wouldn’t let my pride or ego stand in the way of protecting all I have built up as a business. It’s bloody hard to build a business.
I support both red rock and cinema5d and it’s a shame proaim isn’t in the review coz I think it will be the choice of many of the ppl who don’t want to spend as much as they have spent on their camera on accessories and as a canon lens owner who uses nikon as well, their double sided follow focus is well priced.
danap January 27, 2010
The fear that Redrock, a US company, can take legal steps against a non US forum just because they don’t like the review they have got if this forum does not remove the review, is totally ungrounded and sounds as a bad joke. Such a fear regime is only possible in the US. Redrock will never, never succeed with legal bullying outside the US, as it is possible in the afore mentioned pre-modern country. It would be quite interesting therefore to know the real reason which have led cinema5D, a non US based form (correct?) to comply with Redrock’s “kind pressure”? I understand that Brian Valente felt the review was inaccurate and perhaps somewhat biased. However leaving a substantial comment would have contributed to put the record straight in a favourable way for Redrock. What has happened here is regrettable for all parts, the cinema5D community, the forum itself and, last but not least – Redrock. To paraphrase a well known quote — Redrock has won a limited military victory, but has lost the political battle. Remember, from California to the Ethiopian highlands – business is based on trust. This applies particularly to small businesses.
PS. I will address later in a separate the tightening fit problems I have mentioned in an earlier comment.
bvalente January 28, 2010
Danap
please see our response below- any suggestion of ‘redrock considering legal steps’ is simply untrue. Bringing this misinformation up again does not promote a meaningful dialog. This is not a question of countries competing with each other, and we don’t see this as short term or long term gain. It’s unfortunate all around. As I’ve offered to you before, the offer to PM me still stands, and we will resolve your questions or concerns regarding your gear.
Thanks
Brian
R. Murphy February 2, 2010
Seriously…no one has any idea what your point is. Maybe you should rewrite your comment to benefit the C5D community instead of trying to sound all flawlessly PR and “advanced.” I might care what you have to say if you weren’t so arrogant. The community doesn’t care who is in the most power in the DSLR field, we just want the best and most useful products. Get out of here…
deadfish January 27, 2010
damn!!!! I should READ this article , I got snookered by all these company sponsored ‘reviews’, and got myself a genus rig. too late for me.
Mike Chenoweth January 28, 2010
I just wanted to chime in and say I’ve bought numerous products from RRM and have had nothing but great interaction with the company as well as personally from Brian Valente.
I would buy from Redrock Micro again in a New York minute.
Happy Customer.
setab1 January 28, 2010
What do you think of doing a straight forward poll of cinema5d users on who’s gear they are using and another to rate the “customer statisfaction” for each manufacturer might be interesting?
Let us all have our two cents?
antiplastik January 28, 2010
Great idea, put on my todo list!
lyzzard January 28, 2010
Cinevate’s video response to this rig review.
http://www.cinevate.com/website/index.php/dslr_rig_review
I think it gives a balanced response to some of the points which are mentioned by Sebastian.
opherba January 28, 2010
Great video, well done!
This is our quote from the review:
It is possible to mount the follow focus gear in reverse. You need an “L†wrench and have to unlock 4 screws, then you can flip the whole unit 180 degrees and mount the 4 screws again. In the advertisement on the Cinevate site Dennis says, it will take several minutes. Since it took us more than an hour to get this far, we could spare the minutes to set this rig up, but when you’re in an active shooting situation you usually don’t want to spend minutes to adjust the follow focus to a lens
NON of us was talking about an hour to reverse the gear.
Thanks Johnnie
Snorre February 15, 2010
I own a Brevis35 and can attest to Cinevate’s overall quality. I was amazed at the amount of high quality components they were able to fit in a system costing a little over $1000. Like the president of the company points out, there’s plastic, and then there’s plastic.
Adam January 29, 2010
Absolutely fantastic and necessary set of reviews! My hat is off to you for doing such a thorough investigation! Because of this review I’ve found the Vocas rig and am no completely sold it’s the perfect solution for me! I love the top handle vs. Chrosziel’s!
I currently have the Chrosziel baseplate and am looking at purchasing the LCDVF – can anyone share their experiences with the two? I know Zacuto’s loupe will not fit on the baseplate, but will the LCDVF? The review makes no mention of this option…
Thanks in advance!
Justin January 30, 2010
So the Genus mattebox got 1 star out of 10 for quality? for a company that doesn’t make much it’s pretty bad that they only get 1 star. I mean 1 out of 10 is like saying it’s trash isnt it? The weird thing is so many people love them in the forums and such.
Pete Burns January 31, 2010
It’s all about web presence. Lets face it, the first point of contact for people in the market for new kit is the web. A high web presence is what seems to matter, look at Bedrock and Zap-you-too, the higher the profile, the higher the prices; unless you are a company such as SmallHD who appear to have an extremely high professional web presence without enrolling the usual bunch of self promoting 5D2 leaches. I urge Cinema 5D members to go back to basics and use this site for what it was intended for. It’s not the political bitching platform that unfortunately some people think it is! Meanwhile, what’s your favourite lens cloth?
Stefan Frost February 3, 2010
Thank you very much for this review!
I would suggest to boycott red rock products until the review is up again. The behaviour of RR is just scandalous.
You revealed a serious bug in the Genus Mattebox. And they did the only right thing. They fixed it!
watanabe February 3, 2010
Just tried a RR follow focus today…woah, the unit shudders when you turn too fast, thought we set it up wrongly the teeth might be misaligned, after 5 attempts, its the same shuddering results.
Gave up on fast pull focus on that unit.
gabriele gallareto February 9, 2010
What about Zacuto?
Ciao from Italy
Vidal February 9, 2010
DVTEC RIG IS not that cheap. THE actual rig on this page cost $420 + $90SHIPPing from Isreal = $510
I was interested in it but Im going to wait and look at other things. Definitely not that huge of a deal. the shipping killed it for me.
movmedia February 11, 2010
This review has been very useful, but perhaps it is incomplete and always will be- (as the authors concede. ) This technology is evolving so rapidly that reviews and a forum like this is essential. So, good on ya!
For the companies who did not fair well in the review (unfairly or not) hopefully you will have opportunities to clarify, modify, etc…. Its a tough world these days and the motto may as well be, “evolve or die.”
Has anyone put their hands on the Handy film tools rig- just saw an ad for it and I like what I see….
http://www.handyfilmtools.com/adwords/Handy_Film_Tools.html
I have been working to evolve my dslr rig past the clunky magnified pixels of all the loup based finders, and came up with a black box adapter for putting an orientable electronic broadcast viewfinder on the camera.
IT works great. Hope to have a proto to send these guys soon. If you have an old betacam doorstop lying around, you already have the viewfinder . Now you just need the adapter.
colin allison February 15, 2010
Hi, would like more information on the black box adaptor for adapting a broadcast viewfinder to a DSLR.
Cheers, Colin Allison.
movmedia March 1, 2010
hi,
I should have a prototype soon…Keep promising to post pictures, but there are a couple of manufacturing details to work out. feel free to get in touch. movmedia@rof.net
John Hession March 16, 2010
I do have two doorstop betacams. Tell me more. I would love to talk with you on the telephone about this. I can be reached at 603-523-9244
emre guven October 11, 2010
check this out!
handyfilmtools new handy base.x teaser video
http://vimeo.com/15714640
Adam February 12, 2010
I’m surprised to see such a high rating of the Vocas rig as far as comfortableness is concerned – you guys were testing the rig with the offset backgrounds! The shoulder support is supposed to fall INTO your shoulder, not AWAY from it. I can’t imagine how you would find it comfortable to have the shoulder support sitting at the wrong angle… The bracket should be flipped to accommodate for this. I kept looking at the photos of the rig thinking how dumb it was that it was configured this way by the manufacturer, then I went to the website and found that it in fact was assembled wrong for the review! Anyway… Thanks again for your efforts!
antiplastik February 13, 2010
Hi Adam, You’re absolutely right on that. We did attach it upside down, the manufacturer told us later and I just added a note in the review.
The round design of the shoulder pad made it comfortable even though the bracket was installed up side down. In fact it doesn’t make much difference on comfort at all.
Michael Neal February 22, 2010
I don’t know how seriously I can take a set of reviews that mentions a feature as being “the shit” even if it was used in a postive way, unprofessional.
kamera February 25, 2010
Is Redrock a sponsor from Cinema 5D? reviews are reviews, and shouldn’t be removed…
MIX February 25, 2010
Could anyone tell me the difference between these rigs and a steadicam(say merlin).
particularly the DVTEC rig and steadicam merlin.
thank you..
MIX February 25, 2010
to Tom Warner: can you give a elaborate and full explanation about what you are saying, it will be really helpful for low budget filmmakers..
waiting for your reply..
thanks
jhog March 28, 2010
First, I need to say I’m an event and snow sports videographer so I need light weight and multi purpose gear because I carry it miles into the backcountry or I’m shooting a fast paced wedding. With a 652b Manfrotto monopod and 701 head with one handle, tilt all the way forward and down then lock the head. I take a 577 adapter plate with the dove tail mounted under the locking plate at a slight angle and then i mount that to the 7D and then to the 701 head. Put the monopod on your shoulder and spin the 701 handle so you can support the under the camera. With the handle, Z-finder to your eye and focus ring held it is very stable. This works with my tripod and steady cam too.
I suppose I could mass produce a shoulder pad to attach to the monopod and charge hundreds for it.
jason March 20, 2010
Let’s face it, this stuff is over priced… Way over priced! If I can buy a piece of machined steel and aluminum that’s vastly more complex yet cheaper for my mountain bike how can these guys justify their prices.
I have made my own shoulder mount rigs with nothing more than a Manfrotto tripod, fluid head and an adapter plate. When it’s not a shoulder mount rig it’s a tripod (dual purpose). I can do this with my monopod and Varizoom hand held steadycam too.
Where’s IDCs rig? Does the rig have to have 15mm rods to be considered? In my opinion you shouldn’t be overbuilding your DSLR and defeating it’s light weight inconspicuous advantages.
flavioparenti July 4, 2010
I totally agree. It looks like many person wants to use th hdslr like they were film cameras. They are not, what’s the point? Theare lighter? The whole 15mm rod is overweight for such a small device. Check the idc follow focus, that is the type of ideas that will make moviemaking evole into something else.
And you should check the multirig from dvtec, way more flexble than the “pro” one. Really good build, and soooo creative.
I’m with an idc follow focus and the dvtec multir rig. Everything fit in my backpack, no need of other things, like wheel for the ff, or rods, matte box..
Christian November 7, 2010
Here, here! What’s the point in huge elaborate rigs? I’ve shot with them a few times and find myself wanting something simpler. Is it a bit like having a label in fashion? I’m building my own too.
Fred March 22, 2010
I was happy to find an extensive review like this, but in the end this piece left me confused. The writing was extremely poor, and verdicts seem haphazard. In my mind, a good review provides information so a reader can make a decision for himself with objective criteria and recommendations. There’s definitely room for improvement. Keep up the good work.
capceng March 22, 2010
Hi….all, please can some body who have the arri mmb-1 mini mattebox tell me about the physical size of the front cup…..please, I am planning to diy a matte box,and was find interest with the mmb-1. Thanks before.
Miguel Faro March 26, 2010
Reviews shouldnt be removed by request of the manufacture: if i wanted to know what the manufacture says i would go to its website. Bad for redrock but also bad for the people who review it because they do not ttand for what they have written!
Tim Naylor March 26, 2010
I’m a professional DP just now getting into the HDSLR thing full force. I’ve many parts from Chrosziel, ET, and Zacuto and am constantly configuring what will work best.
So here’s my review on the “review”. I found some of the observations to be spot on concerning quality and build of the various manufacturers. Soft metals and cheap plastics are rife in accessories market. You tighten a Chrosziel or Arri screw, you only need a child’s strength to have it lock down. That’s the real stuff. And you can never make too big a deal about the quality and precision of the screws. These are the first things to go in any support system. Look at a Sachtler screw and then a Manfrotto. Which would you trust to suspend your investment from?
I also wish I had read the review before I bought Chrosziel’s HDSLR plate as they are definitely right that the Z Finder hits the baseplate. The Z finder is fast becoming a standard piece of gear. Optically it’s the best. But why does it have to be lower than than the camera’s base? This is so retarded as it precludes the use of long baseplates and quick releases. It forces you into using a Z spacer or Z release which I feel is a bit ad-hoc approach. It’s a very Apple approach.
That said, the glaring omission from these reviews are Zacuto parts. Overall, I think they may have wiped the floor with most of the competitors as they have unparalleled configurability. But I totally understand their position not to participate.
The conflict of interests in these reviews is enough to nullify its credibility. We keep the winning rig – talk about being rigged. If Cinema 5D wants to restore its credibility, I’d say 1st return the winning rig. 2nd, get some true professionals to field test and give their opinions. Building something in a shop is nice but you really don’t know how it is until you’ve taken it out on a job. I’ve sold many a well reviewed 35mm adaptor after they failed me in the real world. Look at the reduser.net SALT tests for fair reviews.
The last thing I found funny about the reviews was the score of the Chrosziel FF. I think it’s the best of the bunch for one reason. It has the least amount of play. Less than Arri, Vocas or Redrock. Also, its snap on and off gear is great for reversing to the “dumb” side. You also never mentioned Chrosziel sells a reduction gear that makes pulling focus on a still lens much more tolerable.
The intentions for this review are great. But the conflict of interest is worthy of Chicago politics. Though in this case a bit more naive – I hope.
Tim Naylor March 26, 2010
Just another thing. I read Brian Valente’s reasons for yanking the review and I must concur with him. If this review is for out and out pro users then the price to value category has less meaning as you just get the best as a job or two would pay for it. But Redrock fills a niche in that they make gear that can be used at pro level for consumer prices. Few can pull this off. Their FF has almost as little play as a Chrosziel and less than the Arri at 1/3 the price.
When I read these posts, sometimes I feel they’re reviewing Lamborghini’s for the Chevy crowd.
Rafael 'Lobo' Iglesias March 26, 2010
Hi
I’ve been trying to download your dslr rig review.pdf over 20 times with no luck (and I have broadband).
Can you guys provide another link where to download from?
Thank you!
Lobo.
Robert C. Fisher April 4, 2010
I am looking for DSLR support gear, baseplate, rods, mattebox etc., for an upcoming project. I had looked favorably at the RedRock gear but when I discovered this review I thought I would get some more info. To my dismay RedRock has censored their part of the review. I find this appalling and reprehensible. Well I think I will look at other gear before I even think about buying RedRock. I will most likely not buy from them if this is their attitude toward potential customers. No Red Rock Mcro gear for ME. They could have used this review to improve their products and make many customers feel involved in their products. I want to buy from manufacturers who listen to their customers needs. I have been shooting for 30 years and for such a long time manufacturers refused to listen to the people who used their gear. So I had to customize my camera gear to work the way I wanted. I learned a lot of skills along the way but nothing can replace an interested manufacturer. Now if Canon and Panasonic would listen to the users of their DSLRs and add needed improvements. There is no perfect product but listening can bring things you never though of.
Cheers
Robert C. Fisher
smussull April 9, 2010
CAN DO A SUMMARY OF RESULTS. RANKINGS: PRICE / QUALITY
very good information
Grayden Laing April 17, 2010
I used the DVtec rig after reading the reviews in this article and I have to say thanks to the folks at Cinema 5D for taking the time to do this review and recommend it. The spring loaded pole support on the DVtec rig is fantastic. It gets a bit loaded down after you put on a matte box and FF, but it’s still better than not having the rod support. You also can’t beat the price point. The only catch is that the rods are screw in so if you want extensions (and if you’re using a matte box with a the Canon 70-200mm or a longer lens you’ll need them) you have to buy them from DVtec, which I found out when I went to get extensions at the local camera shops in Toronto – none of which had any in stock.
Anyway, if you want to check out footage that was hand held and using the DVtec rig with a 7D in the field here is some:
http://vimeo.com/10953866
(I shot it with the Canon 24-105mm L IS f/4 lens)
Roland Joe May 18, 2010
For RedRock to pull their review in my book automatically means boycott.
This is blatant censorship and puts RedRock in a bad light.
Martin May 26, 2010
People complain about how expensive all the stuff around the camera is. Well, I *was* one of those people. And I’ve bought different stuff from India and stuff alike, and while it LOOKS like real movie equipment; it is not. (In fact, my shoulder rig broke in two, right in the actual welding of the plastic, and I would NEVER mount even a cheap camera like the t2i on a rig like that).
You get what you pay for. And for my part, I’m willing to pay the extra money for something that actually works.
Jeff August 24, 2010
Which rig are you talking about ?
bvalente June 7, 2010
Hi everyone
There is still some misleading info here, so I would like to clear up a couple things. There has NEVER ever been any hint or suggestion of legal action from us. This idea is simply untrue, and I can’t be any more clear than that. Any suggestion to the contrary now is pushing a different agenda.
Second we absolutely believe in legitimate third party reviews. We will are participating in upcoming ones and we absolutely welcome that. We are not interested in censorship: we are interested in good quality, informative, impartial reviews that help people understand the pros and cons of any product, rigs or otherwise. We have participated in many in the past, and plan on doing so in the future. This is the exception for us for the reasons I’ve spelled out below.
Finally, our April price adjustment had as many price decreases as increases – we’ve previously explained the reasons behind this (a lot of product improvements, etc.) elsewhere on this forum. It’s still a great deal and 1/3 the cost of comparable gear.
@Jason – there’s nothing generic about this response: I have written it personally to respond to any questions people have about Redrock and our position, and continue to do so. You and I have also spoken via phone at your request on a number of occasions and we’ve also gone out of our way to help you several times. I don’t know how much more un-generic things can be. If you have something specific and concrete you want to share then please PM me, call me, whatever you like.
Thanks again – Brian
Seth July 31, 2010
As one of the many purchasers of gear out there I have to concur, any company demanding a review of one of their products be cut/censored gets an automatic veto for my buying habits. Not insurmountable maybe but a huge hit taken. Weak strategy Mr. Brian Valente. You might want to consider picking up a few books on amazon.com about business, marketing and competition in the information age. Acting like a cheesy punk turns off customers in droves and with the speed of information dissemination these days the ramifications are intense. Look up the Streisand effect Brian: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect).
Seth
Morten Carlsen August 1, 2010
Hi…
I have read this review several times. And I have done my own tests with
ARRI, Chrosziel, Zacuto and Cinevate.
I use a 5Dmkii and Carl Zeiss Lenses which are heavy rotators meaning that
turning the focus dial is NOT as easy as on an AF lens like Canon’s. That is great as
it provides you with more accuracy. However, it also increases the torque on the whole unit when operating the lens via a follow focus. So I went to the store and tested the different brands. All had exactly the same problem. When turning the follow focus the whole camera would actually move a bit (like 2 mm ) either up or down depending on whether I would turn the FF C-Wise or CC-wise. THe problem lies within the limits of how the 5 D mounts to the plate. 1 ONE screw. That is it.
Zacutos was a regular JittaBUG and when pulling focus with that the whole camera would move so much that you would think that you are drunk when pulling Focus (Again this HAPPENS with ALL ZEISS lenses which are very high quality.) Chrosziels was nearly as bad. ARRIS was also pretty un-useable for this. I even called Chrosziel and spoke to the lead designer who recognized the problem and stated that customization would have to be (and had already been) done on their rigs if used with high quality manual focus lenses.
The ONLY company providing a solution which to my eyes were looking like somethin useful was Cinevate. NOw, here in Germany I had no way of testing this and after reading this here review I must that I was pretty reluctant towards investing in Cinevate. But as I said they were the only one which (to my eyse) were building a product which at least looked like it could cut it…. So I went a head a purchased their stuff.
Now I have it and my lens(Zeiss 100MM Macro & 50MM) aint moving a single millimeter even when turning the FF VERY fast.The 50 MM lens is PERFECTLY compatible with the Cinevate follow focus. The lens gears are superior to Chrosziel and Zacutos. It allows you to turn past 360 degrees which on my Zeiss lens is a necessity if you wanna be able to utilize it to its fullest extend. The FF is the best quality I have had in my hand and I have test ARRI and Chrosziel which were great but not as good as this here. And remember I was RELUCTANT towards Cinevate after reading this here review.
The cinevate Mattabox is greats and the best part about it is that it is height adjustable – totally versatile. I seriously CANNOT understand this review which to me seems as if the writers were having personal issues with Cinevate.
To those of you reading this…. The top brands of this TEST WILL move your lens if its name is CARL ZEISS when turning their FF… Cinevates wont….
If you are getting paid for your work then a few MM of movement is enough to endanger your income. At least in my world quality is STILL something that DOES get written in CAPITALs.
This Cinema5D review is BIASED as biased could EVER BE…. I read it before making my purchase and almost cost me the best product. Luckily I trusted my own research and NOT this review. Goes without saying that my opinion of Cinema5D has dropped below the quality of this here review…
Thanks for reading – Good Day
D S October 6, 2010
- Not the Rigs we sent:
We never submitted anything the “tripod” category. In fact, we weren’t even made aware there was such a category until after the review was published. Apparently to fill the gap, the reviewers configured their own version of a Redrock tripod rig based on parts (some of which we didn’t even provide), and then were critical of what they created. What they ended up with does not represent Redrock, and based on the pictures they showed, I wouldn’t use or recommend what they developed either. Of the two rigs we did provide, the first was modified from the configuration we sent (see below), and the second one (theEvent) wasn’t even included in the review.
– Changed rig configurations provided:
One of the concerns stated the review on the eyeSpy rig was that it didn’t sit flat when put down, due to a single handgrip configuration. The rig we sent for review included two handgrips and the handlebar (which you can see in their picture on the “first contact” page) which allows it to be balanced when set down, but for unknown reasons this was later removed for the evaluation portion. In addition, no mention was made that the Redrock eyeSpy rig is the only one that can be directly attached to a tripod using the integrated baseplate in the shoulderpad – a feature we specifically designed to allow easy setting down of the rig and fast change between shouldermount and tripod. This misrepresents our product and its capabilities.
snook November 25, 2010
Why isn’t there a Jag35 review??????
Melynda Suozzo July 9, 2011
I believe the above, why write an assessment on a superceded video camera, when Panasonic has released an additional version – one that is certainly waterproof to 10 measures. The FT2 is a very good camera and goes where I fear to look at my alt, but significantly, why publish an article using a camera that was superseded over six months ago? Melynda Suozzo
DSLR Rigs August 2, 2011
Great and thorough review. Strange that Redrock pulled their review. That does seem suspect unless they have an explanation
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